Seating Depth And Case Expansion Change During Production

[RBHarter]

Perhaps a more mechanical explanation. What happens with only 1 die touching or bottoming is that you create a pressure point and a high place in the tool plate and a low place in the Shell holders. The end result is that you have a wedge instead of parallels. Since the actual pressure face is a machined flat on the ram it is a matter of removing any linkage play . The tool plate however must be pushed up evenly or close to it the sizer hits 1st then the seating die (unless FCD is sizing and used) then the flair and powder drop and last the crimp die. At any point after the 1st touch the tool plate could bind,pinch or slip. It's only a couple 1000th but it can cause variations in the finished product. OAL is a big deal in things like 9mm and 40 but less in 38 and 45 Colts.

Think of it like changing a tire with 5 studs . You push wheel over to catch the 1st nut on the 1st stud through then 1 just off of opposite then come back to the 1st and go to its right or left then 1 off from the 2nd . At some point the wheel drags on a stud or on the hub or even pushes side ways on a shouldered lug nut. The nuts have to be torqued in a star pattern to uniform loading on the brake rotor or it will warp . The same thing happens as each case enters each die except that the hub is pushing the studs into the wheel and applying the final load to it . If the 1st and 2nd(or in this set up the 4th position) contact dies don't seat the tool plate squarely then the results will have the described flaw .

Me ,I would adjust the flaring die and seating depth to correct it .
The other beauty of the Lee progressive tools is that once a tool set is set up you can just change out a complete tool set and head and not have to alter the tool settings unless you have significant press wear from when the tool head was last used.

[Patriot007]

Quote
Re: Seating Depth And Case Expansion Change During Productio

Postby Fyodor » 15 Jan 2015 05

Actually I'm not totally convinced of this mod. It seems to cure the symptoms without eliminating the problem. And it does immensely slow down caliber change. Last but not lest it won't help with expanding, because shellplate contact is shellplate contact, and it doesn't matter if the turret is lifted by a minimal amount. Because the die still is in contact with the shellplate. By holding down the turret this will only happen by a fraction of an inch earlier.

I don't have a LoadMaster, but Mike's mods to me look a bit like solving problems that aren't really there by throwing money at them. Sorry, just my opinion.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
- Evely Beatrice Hall, often misattributed to Voltaire

I think I'm thinking, therefore I may possibly be.



Yes, I have thought about that also.< 45 acp> I'm not having any expanding die errors though, or really any other problems just the Coal. It goes from 1.50, <my goal >up to 1.72 not really a big problem. But I'm a
tech head and that just drives me, a bit nutty. I've checked every thing and ran all kinds of test, and miked
every thing out. I have more time in trying to find a solution for the problem than reload time. I first thought it might of been a difference in the milling of the shell plate, but after mikeing it out, I found none. I found Mike's video on you tube a week or so ago. He had just come out with his turret for the load master. Every thing he stated in the video fit my situation to the tee. Now as you stated, I could just bee throwing money at the problem. But in my world if it solves my problem, I'll be happy. <LOL> I'm going to give him a try and see what happens, and Post my findings in this forum. From what I found out about MagicMike, he know his stuff about Lee products, and so far I very impressed with his work. He's like us, instead of going out and buying a Dillen, he come up with solutions to make it work. He has also come up with some Mods for the primer systems also. Thank God I'm not having a problem there. Also if you hear of a fix for this issue don't hesitate to drop me a line. The problem seems to be coming from when the shell plate meets the turret, it becomes out of square or round in this case. And the pressure is not transferred to the rite place on the shell plate. That's the best I can tell with what is happening here, and the video Mike made points to this. So for now, I THINK this might solve the problem. I'll let you know my findings. Any thing you know that might help, please share. Thanks for you input. I do appreciate it.

[Patriot007]

Perhaps a more mechanical explanation. What happens with only 1 die touching or bottoming is that you create a pressure point and a high place in the tool plate and a low place in the Shell holders. The end result is that you have a wedge instead of parallels. Since the actual pressure face is a machined flat on the ram it is a matter of removing any linkage play . The tool plate however must be pushed up evenly or close to it the sizer hits 1st then the seating die (unless FCD is sizing and used) then the flair and powder drop and last the crimp die. At any point after the 1st touch the tool plate could bind,pinch or slip. It's only a couple 1000th but it can cause variations in the finished product. OAL is a big deal in things like 9mm and 40 but less in 38 and 45 Colts.

Think of it like changing a tire with 5 studs . You push wheel over to catch the 1st nut on the 1st stud through then 1 just off of opposite then come back to the 1st and go to its right or left then 1 off from the 2nd . At some point the wheel drags on a stud or on the hub or even pushes side ways on a shouldered lug nut. The nuts have to be torqued in a star pattern to uniform loading on the brake rotor or it will warp . The same thing happens as each case enters each die except that the hub is pushing the studs into the wheel and applying the final load to it . If the 1st and 2nd(or in this set up the 4th position) contact dies don't seat the tool plate squarely then the results will have the described flaw .

Me ,I would adjust the flaring die and seating depth to correct it .
The other beauty of the Lee progressive tools is that once a tool set is set up you can just change out a complete tool set and head and not have to alter the tool settings unless you have significant press wear from when the tool head was last used.

Yes I have tried this, I've numbered the stations on the shell plate and run twenty rounds threw it and checked the COAL, and it is a repeating number. station 1 throws the same coal as for 2-5, each with the same consistence. So at this point I think its when the shell plate comes in contact with the die turret,
I have movement in the turret or the shell plate. If you have any other ideas, please share. I'll be glad to give them a try. In a week or to I'm going to try MagicMikes new turret and turret locking plate and see how that works, He made these to solve the problem we are talking about. Do you know anything about
that product? Looks to me like it might solve the problem. Thanks for the input, I do appreciate it.

[Patriot007]

For more consistent OAL and operation I setup my Loadmasters in the following way.

The dies in station 1,2, and 4 are tight against the shell plate when the ram is raised. This preloads the ram and ensures it is evenly loaded. (Helps make OAL consistent.) This has it setting like a 3 legged stool, same pressure on each leg, keeps the shell plate level and closed on all 3 points.

I would suggest the following for you.

Station 1 - Size die with snug shell plate contact.
Station 2 - Any die screwed down to snug shell plate contact.
Station 4 - Bullet seating die that does not crimp, screwed in to snug shell plate contact.
(Redding Pro seating die does this, or ream out the Lee seating die crimp ring.)
Station 5 - Crimp die.

So your saying, run the dies down all the way to the shell plate in up position and do not back off, as stated in the set up manual. I follow what your saying about the seating, crimp die in station 4. I have it backed off because I only seat in station 4 and Factory crimp in 5. Thanks

[6Gears1Speed]

I don't think it's any one thing but rather a combination of several things. The turret moves, the shell plate moves, range pick ups have different lengths etc... If the tolerances line up in one direction (tight) it will make a bell that's just enough to place a bullet. If they all line up the other way (loose) it makes a bell That's too small or non-existent.

What I've done to date is this:

- Installed a couple of lock washers at the perfect thickness on the thumb screw on the turret. This allows the turret to be locked down and also prevents the screw from backing out over time. Too thin and it does nothing. Too thick and the turret won't lock.
- Installed sizer in location 1 to hit the plate.
- Installed a universal decapper in location 2 with no pin in it. This is set to hit the plate and that's its only function.
- Set location 3 and 5 to hit the plate. Location 4, the sizer, can't hit the plate. It needs to be raised or it will not function as the shell hits the inside collar before hitting the sizing plug.
- Installed two flat washers and two lock washers under the shell plate thumb nut. The two lock washers are sandwiched between the flat washers. The flat washers are only there to prevent damage to the thumb nut and extractor. I'm using the lock washers with little teeth. This holds the shell plate tight enough for it to still turn and prevents the thumb nut from backing out, or at least slows it down.
- Adjusted turret and carrier simultaneously with the ram in the up position.
- Adjusted the flipper so that the indexing rod is exactly as long as it has to be. Too long and it will bind. Too short and it won't index.

With all of these adjustments I have made several hundred rounds with minimal tinkering during production. Now and then I have to check the thumb nut on the shell plate to make sure it hasn't backed out. It moves a tiny bit but much less than it used to. I just barely have enough of a bell to place the bullet without toppling over. In contrast, with my turret press I could adjust it so that the bell was WAY too big. It seems to be impossible to do that with the LM.

I'm gonna keep tinkering but at least I can make ammo now.

[Steve]

For more consistent OAL and operation I setup my Loadmasters in the following way.

The dies in station 1,2, and 4 are tight against the shell plate when the ram is raised. This preloads the ram and ensures it is evenly loaded. (Helps make OAL consistent.) This has it setting like a 3 legged stool, same pressure on each leg, keeps the shell plate level and closed on all 3 points.

I would suggest the following for you.

Station 1 - Size die with snug shell plate contact.
Station 2 - Any die screwed down to snug shell plate contact.
Station 4 - Bullet seating die that does not crimp, screwed in to snug shell plate contact.
(Redding Pro seating die does this, or ream out the Lee seating die crimp ring.)
Station 5 - Crimp die.

So your saying, run the dies down all the way to the shell plate in up position and do not back off, as stated in the set up manual. I follow what your saying about the seating, crimp die in station 4. I have it backed off because I only seat in station 4 and Factory crimp in 5. Thanks

Lets call the turret a 3 legged stool, station 1, station 2, station4 setting on the ground (shell plate).

Now it's setting there closed up tight all 3 legs touching the ground. This gives even pressure on all legs, no lengths can change because all are closed.

Now cut a little off one leg of the stool, what happens? Stool tilts all the legs aren't touching, or don't line up and OAL goes to blazes.

What you are stating will not give you consistent length or case flare. Just my humble opinion, because I have tried both methods.

[Patriot007]

I don't think it's any one thing but rather a combination of several things. The turret moves, the shell plate moves, range pick ups have different lengths etc... If the tolerances line up in one direction (tight) it will make a bell that's just enough to create a bell. If they all line up the other way (loose) it's too small or non-existent.

What I've done to date is this:

- Installed a couple of lock washers at the perfect thickness on the thumb screw on the turret. This allows the turret to be locked down and also prevents the bolt from backing out over time. Too thin and it does nothing. Too thick and the turret won't lock.
- Installed sizer in location 1 to hit the plate.
- Installed a universal decapper in location 2 with no pin in it. This is set to hit the plate and that's its only function.
- Set location 3 and 5 to hit the plate. Location 4, the sizer, can't hit the plate. It needs to be raised or it will not function as the shell hits the inside collar before hitting the sizing plug.
- Installed two flat washers and two lock washers under the shell plate thumb nut. The two lock washers are sandwiched between the flat washers. The flat washers are only there to prevent damage to the thumb nut and extractor. I'm using the lock washers with little teeth. This holds the shell plate tight enough for it to still turn and prevents the thumb nut from backing out, or at least slows it down.
- Adjusted turret and carrier simultaneously with the ram in the up position.
- Adjusted the flipper so that the indexing rod is exactly as long as it has to be. Too long and it will bind. Too short and it won't index.

With all of these adjustments I have made several hundred rounds with minimal tinkering during production. Now and then I have to check the thumb nut on the shell plate to make sure it hasn't backed out. It moves a tiny bit but much less than it used to. I jut barely have enough of a bell to place the bullet without toppling over. In contrast, with my turret press I could adjust it so that the bell was WAY too big. It seems to be impossible to do that with the LM.

I'm gonna keep tinkering but at least I can make ammo now.

Yep I love tinkering, that was one of the selling points of the load master <LOL> I'm working on an idea for I solving my COAL. It will be about two weeks be for I implement it though. I'll Let you know how it go's.
It evolves a couple of Mods I was telling you about in an earlier message. I could just be throwing money at the problem but I hope it works. I'll let every one know how it go's. Thanks

[Patriot007]

For more consistent OAL and operation I setup my Loadmasters in the following way.

The dies in station 1,2, and 4 are tight against the shell plate when the ram is raised. This preloads the ram and ensures it is evenly loaded. (Helps make OAL consistent.) This has it setting like a 3 legged stool, same pressure on each leg, keeps the shell plate level and closed on all 3 points.

I would suggest the following for you.

Station 1 - Size die with snug shell plate contact.
Station 2 - Any die screwed down to snug shell plate contact.
Station 4 - Bullet seating die that does not crimp, screwed in to snug shell plate contact.
(Redding Pro seating die does this, or ream out the Lee seating die crimp ring.)
Station 5 - Crimp die.

So your saying, run the dies down all the way to the shell plate in up position and do not back off, as stated in the set up manual. I follow what your saying about the seating, crimp die in station 4. I have it backed off because I only seat in station 4 and Factory crimp in 5. Thanks

Lets call the turret a 3 legged stool, station 1, station 2, station4 setting on the ground (shell plate).

Now it's setting there closed up tight all 3 legs touching the ground. This gives even pressure on all legs, no lengths can change because all are closed.

Now cut a little off one leg of the stool, what happens? Stool tilts all the legs aren't touching, or don't line up and OAL goes to blazes.

What you are stating will not give you consistent length or case flare. Just my humble opinion, because I have tried both methods.

Hey. I surely know what you mean. <LOL> My Vacation time is running out quick and it seems I have devoted a lot of that time to my LM. Don't tell the old lady, but I've loved every minuet of it.
So I think I'm going to throw some more money at the problem and see how that works. Thanks.

[6Gears1Speed]

The one thing I'm struggling to understand is that the expanding plug floats inside the die so I don't see how it creates a bell. With the ram all the way up you can pull on the auto disk lever and the tube at the base of the autodisk that's inserted into the die will continue to rise up. There's no back pressure to force the shell into the expanding plug. Based on this I don't see how it works at all. I tried putting some washers on top of the plug to take up the slack which made a bigger bell because the shell was being forced into the plug, but that causes the disk to not move all the way back for a refill so I had to remove them. I don't get it.

[Steve]

I got 5,000 TulAmmo small pistol primers. Never used them before so I loaded 30 rounds to check velocity and accuracy before loading a lot with them.

I did not touch any adjustments on the press, just set down and loaded them. the OAL I use for the 40 S&W is 1.135" I measured these 30 rounds, there lengths are listed below. Extreme spread is .005 inch with 3 dies preloaded as I stated in previous post in this thread. I don't know what happened to give me that 1 at 1.140" It is pretty rare for me to have one this far off.

1.136
1.136
1.135
1.139
1.136
1.137
1.135
1.136
1.136
1.136
1.136
1.136
1.137
1.135
1.136
1.136
1.137
1.136
1.136
1.137
1.137
1.139
1.136
1.135
1.137
1.135
1.140
1.137
1.136
1.136