223 powder through expander die
Forum rules
Remember that this forum is not associated with Lee Precision, this is just a customer based discussion of product ideas.
Remember that this forum is not associated with Lee Precision, this is just a customer based discussion of product ideas.
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
- My Press Choice: Turret
- Location: Pennsylvania
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
223 powder through expander die
I'm not sure how hard this would be to build but I really need a 223 powder through flaring die.
I want to load 223 in my pro 100 but I have trouble starting bullets without a slight flare on the case. I usually use the universal flare die in my turret press.
A powder through flare die just like the pistol dues would be a great help to me.
I want to load 223 in my pro 100 but I have trouble starting bullets without a slight flare on the case. I usually use the universal flare die in my turret press.
A powder through flare die just like the pistol dues would be a great help to me.
- Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
- My Press Choice: Progressive
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1617 times
- Been thanked: 2851 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
There are a couple of things that could be done. Lee might be able to make you a custom Powder Through Expander Die, but I would prefer to avoid the 5° flare that the die produces especially with a bottle-necked rifle cartridge. I feel the same way about the Lee Universal Expanding Die; it isn't an "expanding" die but rather a flaring die. You can turn it into an "expanding" die by using an NOE Expander Plug inside the die. The plug in the Universal Expander Die does throw another die into the mix, and in that the Pro 1000 is limited to three stations you could run: Universal Expander Die, Small Rifle Charging Die with your powder delivery choice, and then the Bullet Seating Die. Your sizing would need to take place somewhere outside this rotation.
That said, here is the easy fix.
Get some Bee's wax and run the outside edge of the base of the bullet against it. When you set the bullet on the case mouth, it should stick to it. You want to make sure that you have chamfered and deburred the inside of the case mouth so that bullet can start into the case. The picture is with a cast bullet, but I do the same with jacket bullets. The caveat here is that you don't want bullet sizing to buckle or bump the shoulder where it meets the neck. If the bullet or inside of the case neck is such a poor fit, that is possible. You can check it by measuring the mouth and neck at the shoulder of a sized case with you calipers against a seated case. On the other end, you don't want a flare or expansion to mess up bullet/neck tension either.
The greater question here is to figure out why your expander is not taking care of the sizing need. My preference is to custom order an expander that fits my needs. This has been a slow process for me as I have a lot of cartridges with a lot of different needs but as of yesterday, with the arrival of a package from Lee, I think I'm finally there. Came here to post a story about doing this work with the 32 Win Spl.
That said, here is the easy fix.
Get some Bee's wax and run the outside edge of the base of the bullet against it. When you set the bullet on the case mouth, it should stick to it. You want to make sure that you have chamfered and deburred the inside of the case mouth so that bullet can start into the case. The picture is with a cast bullet, but I do the same with jacket bullets. The caveat here is that you don't want bullet sizing to buckle or bump the shoulder where it meets the neck. If the bullet or inside of the case neck is such a poor fit, that is possible. You can check it by measuring the mouth and neck at the shoulder of a sized case with you calipers against a seated case. On the other end, you don't want a flare or expansion to mess up bullet/neck tension either.
The greater question here is to figure out why your expander is not taking care of the sizing need. My preference is to custom order an expander that fits my needs. This has been a slow process for me as I have a lot of cartridges with a lot of different needs but as of yesterday, with the arrival of a package from Lee, I think I'm finally there. Came here to post a story about doing this work with the 32 Win Spl.
Michael
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
- My Press Choice: Turret
- Location: Pennsylvania
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
Thanks for the advice.Ill try the beeswax.
I have wondered if a custom expander would help. I have this problem with flat base jacketed bullets and I'm planning to cast for 223 so I expect it to be worse. I really think a custom powder through flare die would be best if possible. Would great on the 4 hole turret press as well.
I have wondered if a custom expander would help. I have this problem with flat base jacketed bullets and I'm planning to cast for 223 so I expect it to be worse. I really think a custom powder through flare die would be best if possible. Would great on the 4 hole turret press as well.
- Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
- My Press Choice: Progressive
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1617 times
- Been thanked: 2851 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
I've been through that and I think flaring the case mouth of a bottle-neck cartridge creates more issues than it solves:HankRearden wrote:I really think a custom powder through flare die would be best if possible. Would great on the 4 hole turret press as well.
- The flare induces run-out as the bullet is seated.
- Slight variances in bullet vs. neck concentricity will buckle the case neck slightly as the bullet seating proceeds.
- Uniformly removing the flare as or after the bullet is seated is almost impossible to achieve. This results in case necks that are non-concentric or outside of the cartridge specs.
Michael
- Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
- My Press Choice: Progressive
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1617 times
- Been thanked: 2851 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
Hank,
I've had expanders on the brain for the last couple of day, heck, the last year. See my post made this evening: Received My Custom 32 Win Spl EZ X Expander
I've had expanders on the brain for the last couple of day, heck, the last year. See my post made this evening: Received My Custom 32 Win Spl EZ X Expander
Michael
- farmerjim
- Supporter
- Posts: 315
- Joined: 29 Jan 2015 14:27
- My Press Choice: Turret
- Location: Saint Francisville LA
- Has thanked: 20 times
- Been thanked: 114 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
I have been loading 223 cast on the Lee classic turret Turret using the lyman M die. This requires starting with primed brass. Then the 4 stages on the turret are the M die, Charging die, seating die and the crimp die. 21 grains of H4198 cycles the AR.
- Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
- My Press Choice: Progressive
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1617 times
- Been thanked: 2851 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
There you go, Hank. Thanks, Jim.farmerjim wrote:I have been loading 223 cast on the Lee classic turret Turret using the lyman M die. This requires starting with primed brass. Then the 4 stages on the turret are the M die, Charging die, seating die and the crimp die. 21 grains of H4198 cycles the AR.
I've been all over the map with my reloading, for 40 years because of time restraints. Since I retired, I have wanted to "define" and "set" all my reloading, so I'm not always reinventing the wheel. The stuff on the Load-Master is getting there quickly, and as I come to each rifle cartridge, I want the same for the turret press. I want to take deprimed, clean, prepped brass and not removed it from the shell holder until it is a completed round of ammo. So that means that sizing and depriming will take place on the press.
I had high hopes for the Auto Drum for powder delivery, but my results with it were downright sorry. I'm sticking with the Perfect Powder Measure mounted on a Long or Short Rifle Charging Die with the Guide Guides Adapter. I have all the Charging Dies on the turrets, that was a big purchase, and today I will set up the Safety Prime.
Michael
- farmerjim
- Supporter
- Posts: 315
- Joined: 29 Jan 2015 14:27
- My Press Choice: Turret
- Location: Saint Francisville LA
- Has thanked: 20 times
- Been thanked: 114 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
If I am loading the 223 with jacketed and the cases have been chamfered, it can be done on the turret in 4 stages with the safety prime. For cast I need a 5 hole turret to do it in one shot.
- Ranch Dog
- Site Admin
- Posts: 6458
- Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
- My Press Choice: Progressive
- Location: Inez, TX
- Has thanked: 1617 times
- Been thanked: 2851 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
I'm not working with the 223 Rem; my 22 cartridge is the 218 Bee. I've been using a cast bullet for years, my TLC225-50-RF and I've been using the NOE Expander Plug. I only load this once a year, and I forgot about it with the Custom Expanders.
There is no way that the stock EZ X Expander, at .222", will allow my .225" cast bullet to sit on the case. It has been at least a dozen years since I've reloaded jacketed bullets with this cartridge, but I went ahead and pulled them out. Both the Hornady and Speer Bee bullets are .224" in diameter, and neither will sit on a case mouth after being sized with the stock EZ X Expander.
By some mistake on my part, I happen to have two NOE .222"~.226" Expander Plugs so I set one up with the Universal Expanding Die for the .224" bullet. Wanting to be .001" over bullet diameter (same + over I use with cast bullets), I carefully measured and marked that point and the point of case contact so that I could use a little bit of math for quick die setup. In under two minutes, the die was ready, and I expanded the case with the .225" portion of the plug. The picture shows the results.
I do need to order expanders for this family of cartridges; the 218 Bee, 25-20 Win, and 32-20 Win. I did remember why I had not done it yet, the 32-20 Win uses a stock pistol decapper and PTE Die, and I need to talk with the Custom guy and see if I can get a .314" EZ X Expander for the short die body. Right now with this cartridge I'm not using the PTED, but a Short Rifle Charging Die behind the UED with the NOE plug
So this week I'm going to order these EZ X Expanders. Like I noted in my previous post I will order these as a plus size against the stock .222" expander to avoid any confusion.
Proof that I'm a full-service Admin! My bench is a mess after pushing my current projects aside and checking this stuff!
There is no way that the stock EZ X Expander, at .222", will allow my .225" cast bullet to sit on the case. It has been at least a dozen years since I've reloaded jacketed bullets with this cartridge, but I went ahead and pulled them out. Both the Hornady and Speer Bee bullets are .224" in diameter, and neither will sit on a case mouth after being sized with the stock EZ X Expander.
By some mistake on my part, I happen to have two NOE .222"~.226" Expander Plugs so I set one up with the Universal Expanding Die for the .224" bullet. Wanting to be .001" over bullet diameter (same + over I use with cast bullets), I carefully measured and marked that point and the point of case contact so that I could use a little bit of math for quick die setup. In under two minutes, the die was ready, and I expanded the case with the .225" portion of the plug. The picture shows the results.
I do need to order expanders for this family of cartridges; the 218 Bee, 25-20 Win, and 32-20 Win. I did remember why I had not done it yet, the 32-20 Win uses a stock pistol decapper and PTE Die, and I need to talk with the Custom guy and see if I can get a .314" EZ X Expander for the short die body. Right now with this cartridge I'm not using the PTED, but a Short Rifle Charging Die behind the UED with the NOE plug
So this week I'm going to order these EZ X Expanders. Like I noted in my previous post I will order these as a plus size against the stock .222" expander to avoid any confusion.
- +.003" for .225", I have a thousand jacketed Bee bullets that need to be shot!
- +.004" for .226" with my TLC225-50-RF
- .259" for my TLC258-80-RF and the 25-20 Win. I will need to measure the stock expander first.
- .314" for the TLC313-115-RF and the 32-20 Win (hopefully).
Proof that I'm a full-service Admin! My bench is a mess after pushing my current projects aside and checking this stuff!
Michael
-
- Posts: 25
- Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
- My Press Choice: Turret
- Location: Pennsylvania
- Has thanked: 1 time
- Been thanked: 2 times
Re: 223 powder through expander die
LOL. Dude you and the rest of this forum rock. I really appreciate the feedback.