Total Defense With Hi-Point 45 Auto Carbines & Pistols

[DaveInGA]

Picked up two .45ACP Carbines and two .45ACP pistols that share the same magazines, all plus P rated. I am wanting to build a cartridge based on feed reliability, hunting effectiveness, common ammo and enough zip to take advantage of the carbine range and the +P rating cartridge rating.

I'll be casting my own, lubing it with one of the following methods:

1. Pan lube/Lee size die
2. Ben's Liquid Lube
3. Epoxy coat
4. Powder coat

Will load with a progressive press tuned/modified to maintain COAL closely.

Suggestions on a currently available bullet from Lee or NOE would be welcome. Weights are limited only by the .45ACP case wall thinness and pressure.

[Ranch Dog]

Given your other post concerning these carbines and pistols, I would favor a round flat nose (RF) if it will feed. I would be inclined to buy a 2 cavity Lee 452-255-RF for testing and if the bullets performed well, buy a 6 cavity mold for production.

[RBHarter]

Rd took the words right off my keyboard.

If the pistols will feed it I would also suggest a 454424 although the slightly shorter 454423 might be better for the pistols both work well and are Keith stylized SWC both work well in a 1917 and a Colts carbine at deference load levels . In the 1917 , 5.5 bbl and a very tight action, they give 800 fps over 5.5 Unique and 8.0 gr in a Colts case gives 1200 fps in a 16" Carbine. I mentioned the Colts load as it delivers about the same 800 fps in the 7.5 " RBH.

I believe there is a 230 RNFP from Lee as well . Data will be more available for that weight .

[DaveInGA]

I've loaded up to a 230 grain cast lead bullet in my .45ACP cartridges on a pretty regular basis.

RD: What kind of powder loads and what sort of velocities should I be looking for in the Lee 452-255-RF? would you hesitate to run a 255 grain in a semi auto handgun?

RB: There is a 200 RNFP, but not a 230. But the 200 grain should have good loading data and be good in both pistols and carbines. I think these pistols have either 4.5 or 5 inch barrels. The carbines have 17.5 inch barrels. I'm thinking the carbines, with the right cartridge, oughta delivery some pretty good whammy.

[Ranch Dog]

RD: What kind of powder loads and what sort of velocities should I be looking for in the Lee 452-255-RF? would you hesitate to run a 255 grain in a semi auto handgun?

RB: There is a 200 RNFP, but not a 230. But the 200 grain should have good loading data and be good in both pistols and carbines. I think these pistols have either 4.5 or 5 inch barrels. The carbines have 17.5 inch barrels. I'm thinking the carbines, with the right cartridge, oughta delivery some pretty good whammy.

Given the self defense role, I would prefer a Round Flat (RF) nose over any other shape. Unfortunately Lee doesn''t offer a 230-grain 45 Auto bullet of this nose profile. I spent some time looking at the bullet designs on the Lee dimension worksheet and I don't think the 452-255-RF is going to work as the nose is .006" shorter than the 200-grain bullet and that bullet is probably at a minimum for reliable feed up a semi-auto ramp. So, I've changed my opinion and would try the 452-200-RF first and the 255 second if the 200 didn't work out accuracy wise.

It has been slow around here so I took the time to run some loads through QuickLoad using some of the internal ballistic characteristics I've find desirable. Here are those suggestions.

HiPoint 45Auto Loads.jpg

You mind if I change the title of this topic to reflect the subject matter a little better, I thought you were developing a new cartridge!

[DaveInGA]

Sure, that was the best I could come up with. I'll look and see what NOE offers. Is WST listed in that software?

After processing it mentally while I was sitting around at the family Christmas evening gift exchange, I decided to come home, research the web about the Quickload software. I was impressed enough, I decided to go ahead and order it. Thank you for showing me it's possibilities.

Dave

[Ranch Dog]

Is WST listed in that software?

What is "WST"?

[DaveInGA]

Is WST listed in that software?

What is "WST"?

Winchester Super Target, an extremely clean burning powder, silver instead of black in appearance and extremely accurate in my 1911's with a true #68 plain base bullet. Leaves your gun amazingly clean and requiring a minimum of cleaning. Meters good too. Dunno how much it runs now, but it is excellent target powder, not sure about anything else, but at .45ACP ranges, if it meets the velocity requirements, it should be fantastic.

I bought 8 pounds, got to try it out 5 years back and then moved and haven't gotten back to it since. I remember thinking "this stuff is better than Clays" at the time.

[DaveInGA]

RD,

Okay, went over to the NOE website and found these:

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_in ... i3avu5dj75

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_in ... i3avu5dj75

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_in ... i3avu5dj75

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_in ... i3avu5dj75

That website is like a candy store for the caster. So many interesting molds and other neat stuff.

Note: The barrels, both the 4.5" pistol and the 17.5" rifle, are 1-10" twist rate, so the bullets are definitely being stabilized, almost too much, as the modified Greenhill formula calls for a 1-38" twist rate.

Could you look over the above molds and tell me what you see?

[Ranch Dog]

RD, Could you look over the above molds and tell me what you see?

Honestly, I don't like any of them. Some of this is putting the cart before the horse in that you will need to at least slug one of your handguns and one rifle to see exactly what groove diameter Hipoint is using.

The SAAMI spec is a .450" groove. IF that is the case, I do not like going above a .452" diameter bullet that is using a non-bore riding nose (a standard ogive in other words). The 45 Auto bullet nose is so short that any sizing down really compromises the design if it cuts any diameter off of the nose. If it is a bore rider, same applies. Know what the nose diameter is and don't size into it into the nose. Sizing the bore rider body is no issue.

So you think, okay I have a .450" groove and a .453" bullet, I won't size. That probably won't work. There isn't much of a leade in a 45 Auto and more than likely you will experience issues with the bullet causing the slide to fail during its return to battery.

Personally, I would only use a .453" bullet if the barrel had a .451" groove.

On to the bullets:

• 453 210Gr. RF 5 cavity PB (BD) - If you barrel stock is .451", this is probably the way to go. If the barrel is .450", I would go with the .452" Lee. This is a Lee clone. NOE also has this bullet at 230-grains but I don't see it listed on his website. Notice that the drawing on this page is for the .230-grain bullet.
• 454 265Gr. WFN 2 cavity 1GC 1PB - This is probably a design for the 45 Colt, the nose length is too long for a 45 Auto application plus it is gas checked.
• 454-255-RF 2 Cavity 1GC 1PB (45 Colt) - I'd pass on this 45 Colt design for the primary reason of it being a gas checked design which places it outside your original scope of consideration.
• HTC 452 230Gr. RF 5 cavity PB - Unless you want to start epoxy orpowder coating bullets, this isn't going to work without lube grooves. (ooops... saw that you are considering this in the OP)

Going through this convinces me that "I" would try the Lee 452-210-RF in a 2 cavity before anything else. It is the cheapest possibility provided you have a .450" groove. Other things are involved in this as well. Lee makes a .452 Lube & Size Kit and I would size the bullet as it "trues" it up to provide for positive feed and helps you detect undersize bullets that can be rejected. So for $40 plus shipping you can see how things work out. If the Lee design works, buy a six cavity and sell the two and you are still into this outfit for quite a bit less than what it will take from any other source.

Of course, all this is just my 2¢.