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Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 07 May 2019 12:42
by Ohio3Wheels
I don't know why this bugs me but it does. I've not been able to find the origin of the rifle standard as I assume it came after the pistol. The pistol is said to be a joint effort of Remington, S&W and probably Elmer Keith.

Any ideas?

Make smoke,

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 07 May 2019 14:47
by mikld
Good question! I've often wondered (about 22 seconds at a time). I'd like to see a good answer...

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 07 May 2019 16:15
by RBHarter
I suspect that it originated with the 44 Henry , 44-40 and 44-?? Sharps etc . The original BP cartridges were name based on case OD which is no big deal with ML and heeled bullets , like 22 LR . But the 44 Russian was an inside the case lubed bullet and needed a reduced dia bullet , enter the .429 dia , instead of a heeled externally lubed bullet like the Henry and 44 American at .440 . Then there was a selection of semi standardized Sharps , Winchester etc rifles offered in 44 cal rifle cartridges more or less parented on the 50-70 , 50-90 , 50-110 and it's off spring in 45 cal with long tapered cases and actually shouldered cases . Many were intended for paper patched bullets to compensate for the "reduced" neck diameter raising pressures . Like going from 458/460 to 430/434 is a big step in a 20,000 psi cartridge . The rifles used the same bore diameter as the pistols but needed or were believed to need deeper grooves to displace powder fouling and provide a better hold on the slower to accelerate higher velocity heavier bullets . Ultimately it stuck , just like the .452/.458 , 357/359 of the 45s and 35s.....err....38s .

Then you get into the bucket of mud with 40 cal pistol at .401 and 40 cal rifle at .408 and 41 pistols in .410 ........ because that makes perfect sense ...... Same story and origins except the 41 Colts's started out inside lubed with a 410 groove . The 38-40 is just an exception to all the rules as its a 44 40 case necked down to 401 and won't hold 40 gr of of BP except maybe an empty case scooped full ......

I hope this was at least as clear as mud and slightly more illuminating than a burned out bulb .

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 07 May 2019 16:28
by Macd
I have always understood that commercial ammunition is loaded for both rifle and handgun use to the SAAMI standard which is a MAP of 36,000 PSI or if you prefer 40,000 CUP. (I checked). This only makes safe sense. The first rifle I can remember using the 44 magnum was the Ruger Model 44 Carbine around 1960. Great brush gun if I recall correctly but haven't shot one in decades. In the Contender and other beefed up single shots, like other handgun cartridges, it is usually able to be loaded to more pressure per my Lyman 49th edition. That is all I know.

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 07 May 2019 17:46
by larryw
+corn

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 08 May 2019 04:37
by Ranch Dog
I think it was merely defining a throat, step, and leade for the rifle. I've never understood why SAAMI didn't identify the specs for the other pistol cartridge used in rifles, like they had the 44 Mag. That would be my question.

I also think that somehow Marlin was involved in the SAAMI 44 Mag rifle spec as the rifling is that of the Micro-Groove barrel. The rifle Marlin produced in the 44 Mag was not the present 1894, but the 336-44 which started production in 1963. I had one of those at one time.

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 08 May 2019 09:24
by mikld
The difference isn't the ammo. SAAMI calls for a groove diameter of .429" for hand guns and .431" for rifles. Pressures, case dimensions, etc. are the same. Personally, I don't think any differences like this specific one can be traced to old cartridges as no 44 Magnum handguns or rifles were made prior to the 1950s...

An aside; when did SAAMI come into being and make recommendations that manufacturers would follow?

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 08 May 2019 13:37
by Ranch Dog
mikld wrote:An aside; when did SAAMI come into being and make recommendations that manufacturers would follow?
1926

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 09 May 2019 09:30
by mikld
1926? Well that shoots some of my thinking all to heck...

Re: Why two standards for the 44 mag?

Posted: 09 May 2019 11:15
by Ohio3Wheels
Just took another stroll through the 2 volumes of SAAMI specs. Looking at the various "dual purpose" cartridges only the 44 Magnum appears in both volumes. The "legacy" cartridges like the 32-20 and the 44-40 only show up in the rifle volume.

I'm going to have to get the 35 Rem 336 out and put the bore scope in it see how the micro groove compares to the Henry's bore.

Make smoke,