Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by Macd »

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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by Ranch Dog »

klr wrote:I think the reason they all appear to have the same defect is the same reason that punctured tires are all flat on the bottom.

So when you cut the chamber off center the rifling will be closer to the case mouth on the side that gets the least amount of cutting and farther away on the side that get the most contact with the cutting tool. Just imagine two cylinders meeting at an angle.

In private communications with experienced gunsmiths, this problem is not a rare occurrence.

Oddly enough, one of my students said it best today. (He's 12 years old and competes in 3-Gun and Run-n-Gun competitions and he'll tell me shooting stories during free time like recess). Anyway, today I told him about my chamber issue. He asked if all three barrels were made by the same company. I told him no and that this problem was more common than people realized. His response was, "I'll bet they haven't looked." :D
There is a lot of wisdom in this post! Having done well over 100 chamber casts or poundings, I think it more common than you think and that is a smart 12-year-old. If you are going to do this, be sure you want to know. I started casting chambers for my bullet design work, which is primarily centered on leverguns, but have cast every type of action as well as semi-auto pistols and revolvers, both cylinders and forcing cones. "over 100 chamber casts" might be a low number.

With my cast bullet design work behind me, I only cast a chamber if I'm experiencing a problem with a firearm and suspect it is related to this topic as once I know, I will do something about it. Used guns present a problem as there is only one cost-effective way to cure it and that is to move the gun. That presents somewhat of a moral dilemma for me as I will not knowingly pass a problem like this to another or place the firearm on an auction site. With a new firearm, I work the warranty, and the response has surprised me. Take Taurus, I think I returned four pistols for this issue. That sounds like a lot, but I targeted their handguns for cast bullet designs for a number of reasons and ended up purchasing about 18. I thought that there might be a problem with the return but didn't have an issue. New barrels were installed, and the arm returned. The one that was an issue was Ruger, despite including the chamber cast they argued there was nothing wrong with the product. That is where my dilemma cost me money; I had to pay to have the rifle rebarreled and did so with the intent of selling it when returned. It is also why I will not ever purchase another Ruger product, I've had a problem with everyone I purchased.

With a new firearm, new or used, I do look at the step and lands with my cheap borescope, and they have been as they should be, at least of late. I have been buying older arms rather than new.
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by Macd »

Ranch Dog wrote:I have been buying older arms rather than new.
RD I think you may have a point. I believe that there has been a push to reduce costs and increase production over the past several decades. It happens when companies are being forced by investors to value short term dividends over long tern viability, when market demand skyrockets, when skilled labour is replaced by unskilled operators often on piece rate wages and when low cost global competition enters the marketplace. It is not a new phenomenon. Savage in the 50's and 60's up to bankruptcy in the 80's saw a decline in quality. Smith and Wesson also saw a decline with the purchase of the company in the 60's by a large conglomerate. The large used market also keeps prices down which furthest squeezes margins and leads to additional cost cutting. Quality costs and has taken a hit as a result. At the risk of sounding like a grumpy old codger, they just don't make them like they used to make them. :S
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by klr »

Ruger: BIL bought a RAR rifle in 300 Blackout. I bought a Mini 14 at the same time. Both had problems. His went back and they replaced it rather than just reset the headspace like it needed. Cheaper for them, but cost him another FFL transfer fee. Replacement rifle had the exact same problem. This time they refused to send him another 300 Blackout but offered another RAR in whatever caliber he wanted. So that's another FFL fee for him and he doesn't have the rifle he really wanted. Ruger sent me a new ejector for my Mini 14 and I have it running perfectly. It's now sitting at the local gun shop for consignment sale and I won't even look at Ruger stuff.

Back to the Howa.

First response from the factory was that it may be the steel case ammo (ignoring the crooked chamber issue). I directed their attention to the crooked throat and they agreed to bring it in for a look. Today I get an RA number and told to send it to them at MY cost. Estimated repair of 4-6 weeks. I replied that I expect a prepaid shipping label and haven't heard back yet.

So, I'm pondering my options. A reasonable person would take the $40 screwing that it will cost for shipping, wait two months, and then pay another FFL fee when they send me a new rifle. Or take the results when they just run a throating reamer down the bore and give it a sloppy throat so that a bullet fits without heavy engraving.

Another option is to ream the throat myself and then sell it as long as it shoots into 2-3" at 100.

Third option is to get a custom barrel fitted.

Fourth option is to finally get off my butt and get my lathe set up to make good barrels myself.

I think I'm about finished buying new guns too.
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by Ranch Dog »

Ugh...
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by klr »

$58.77 for the cheapest USPS shipping w/insurance. :x
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by GasGuzzler »

I have only bought two new, both Rugers, and both have 10-20% of their original Ruger parts. Not because there was an issue but because I like to tinker and personalize. There is no perfect solution to your dilemma.
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by Ranch Dog »

klr wrote:Back to the Howa.

First response from the factory was that it may be the steel case ammo (ignoring the crooked chamber issue). I directed their attention to the crooked throat and they agreed to bring it in for a look. Today I get an RA number and told to send it to them at MY cost. Estimated repair of 4-6 weeks. I replied that I expect a prepaid shipping label and haven't heard back yet.

So, I'm pondering my options. A reasonable person would take the $40 screwing that it will cost for shipping, wait two months, and then pay another FFL fee when they send me a new rifle. Or take the results when they just run a throating reamer down the bore and give it a sloppy throat so that a bullet fits without heavy engraving.

Another option is to ream the throat myself and then sell it as long as it shoots into 2-3" at 100.
Howa has three descriptions of their warranty in the US, none address shipping, so I would say that the shipping is on them. It is common for a manufacturer to exclude shipping a year after purchase but that is always spelled out (probably by some product liability law). As I said, I think it is on them. I would like them to prove the sub-MOA guarantee with your rifle, but with shipping on your dollar.

https://www.legacysports.com/product-re ... o & Claims

https://www.legacysports.com/howa-warranty-terms-conditions/]Terms and Conditions

Annuouncemment of Sub-MOA Guarantee starting in 2017

Have you tried chambering any factory ammo? If it will chamber, go ahead and shoot it at 100 yards to see what the results are against their sub-MOA warranty.

If you are stuck with shipping as this plays out, that is still the cheapest option. Was this a $350 buy?

Damn, I'm glad I bought the Target Cams :!: Sorry dude.
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by klr »

This is one of the $350 rifles.

I shot a couple of 100gr rounds because they didn't jam into the rifling when the round is chambered and they looked fine. I'm going to get some ammo and see how it shoots this weekend.

Edit - Howa customer service is sending me a shipping label after I expressed my disagreement with paying for return shipping on a defective rifle right out of the box.
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Re: Reasonable Expectations for Chambers

Post by klr »

I had the day off and the shipping label was emailed to me, so I boxed it up and sent it off.

I also was curious about how the chamber in my Howa Mini in .223 looked, so I made a chamber cast. This rifle is very accurate.

Here are opposite sides of the cast. This is more like it:

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