223 powder through expander die

Do you have a product idea for Lee Precision?
Forum rules
Remember that this forum is not associated with Lee Precision, this is just a customer based discussion of product ideas.
HankRearden
Posts: 25
Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
My Press Choice: Turret
Location: Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

223 powder through expander die

Post by HankRearden »

I'm not sure how hard this would be to build but I really need a 223 powder through flaring die.
I want to load 223 in my pro 100 but I have trouble starting bullets without a slight flare on the case. I usually use the universal flare die in my turret press.
A powder through flare die just like the pistol dues would be a great help to me.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
My Press Choice: Progressive
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1616 times
Been thanked: 2850 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by Ranch Dog »

There are a couple of things that could be done. Lee might be able to make you a custom Powder Through Expander Die, but I would prefer to avoid the 5° flare that the die produces especially with a bottle-necked rifle cartridge. I feel the same way about the Lee Universal Expanding Die; it isn't an "expanding" die but rather a flaring die. You can turn it into an "expanding" die by using an NOE Expander Plug inside the die. The plug in the Universal Expander Die does throw another die into the mix, and in that the Pro 1000 is limited to three stations you could run: Universal Expander Die, Small Rifle Charging Die with your powder delivery choice, and then the Bullet Seating Die. Your sizing would need to take place somewhere outside this rotation.

That said, here is the easy fix.

Image

Get some Bee's wax and run the outside edge of the base of the bullet against it. When you set the bullet on the case mouth, it should stick to it. You want to make sure that you have chamfered and deburred the inside of the case mouth so that bullet can start into the case. The picture is with a cast bullet, but I do the same with jacket bullets. The caveat here is that you don't want bullet sizing to buckle or bump the shoulder where it meets the neck. If the bullet or inside of the case neck is such a poor fit, that is possible. You can check it by measuring the mouth and neck at the shoulder of a sized case with you calipers against a seated case. On the other end, you don't want a flare or expansion to mess up bullet/neck tension either.

The greater question here is to figure out why your expander is not taking care of the sizing need. My preference is to custom order an expander that fits my needs. This has been a slow process for me as I have a lot of cartridges with a lot of different needs but as of yesterday, with the arrival of a package from Lee, I think I'm finally there. Came here to post a story about doing this work with the 32 Win Spl.
Michael
Image
HankRearden
Posts: 25
Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
My Press Choice: Turret
Location: Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by HankRearden »

Thanks for the advice.Ill try the beeswax.
I have wondered if a custom expander would help. I have this problem with flat base jacketed bullets and I'm planning to cast for 223 so I expect it to be worse. I really think a custom powder through flare die would be best if possible. Would great on the 4 hole turret press as well.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
My Press Choice: Progressive
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1616 times
Been thanked: 2850 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by Ranch Dog »

HankRearden wrote:I really think a custom powder through flare die would be best if possible. Would great on the 4 hole turret press as well.
I've been through that and I think flaring the case mouth of a bottle-neck cartridge creates more issues than it solves:
  • The flare induces run-out as the bullet is seated.
  • Slight variances in bullet vs. neck concentricity will buckle the case neck slightly as the bullet seating proceeds.
  • Uniformly removing the flare as or after the bullet is seated is almost impossible to achieve. This results in case necks that are non-concentric or outside of the cartridge specs.
Michael
Image
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
My Press Choice: Progressive
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1616 times
Been thanked: 2850 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by Ranch Dog »

Hank,

I've had expanders on the brain for the last couple of day, heck, the last year. See my post made this evening: Received My Custom 32 Win Spl EZ X Expander
Michael
Image
User avatar
farmerjim
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 315
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 14:27
My Press Choice: Turret
Location: Saint Francisville LA
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by farmerjim »

I have been loading 223 cast on the Lee classic turret Turret using the lyman M die. This requires starting with primed brass. Then the 4 stages on the turret are the M die, Charging die, seating die and the crimp die. 21 grains of H4198 cycles the AR.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
My Press Choice: Progressive
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1616 times
Been thanked: 2850 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by Ranch Dog »

farmerjim wrote:I have been loading 223 cast on the Lee classic turret Turret using the lyman M die. This requires starting with primed brass. Then the 4 stages on the turret are the M die, Charging die, seating die and the crimp die. 21 grains of H4198 cycles the AR.
There you go, Hank. Thanks, Jim.

I've been all over the map with my reloading, for 40 years because of time restraints. Since I retired, I have wanted to "define" and "set" all my reloading, so I'm not always reinventing the wheel. The stuff on the Load-Master is getting there quickly, and as I come to each rifle cartridge, I want the same for the turret press. I want to take deprimed, clean, prepped brass and not removed it from the shell holder until it is a completed round of ammo. So that means that sizing and depriming will take place on the press.

I had high hopes for the Auto Drum for powder delivery, but my results with it were downright sorry. I'm sticking with the Perfect Powder Measure mounted on a Long or Short Rifle Charging Die with the Guide Guides Adapter. I have all the Charging Dies on the turrets, that was a big purchase, and today I will set up the Safety Prime.
Michael
Image
User avatar
farmerjim
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 315
Joined: 29 Jan 2015 14:27
My Press Choice: Turret
Location: Saint Francisville LA
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 114 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by farmerjim »

If I am loading the 223 with jacketed and the cases have been chamfered, it can be done on the turret in 4 stages with the safety prime. For cast I need a 5 hole turret to do it in one shot.
User avatar
Ranch Dog
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 6456
Joined: 22 Jun 2013 17:16
My Press Choice: Progressive
Location: Inez, TX
Has thanked: 1616 times
Been thanked: 2850 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by Ranch Dog »

I'm not working with the 223 Rem; my 22 cartridge is the 218 Bee. I've been using a cast bullet for years, my TLC225-50-RF and I've been using the NOE Expander Plug. I only load this once a year, and I forgot about it with the Custom Expanders.

Image

There is no way that the stock EZ X Expander, at .222", will allow my .225" cast bullet to sit on the case. It has been at least a dozen years since I've reloaded jacketed bullets with this cartridge, but I went ahead and pulled them out. Both the Hornady and Speer Bee bullets are .224" in diameter, and neither will sit on a case mouth after being sized with the stock EZ X Expander.

By some mistake on my part, I happen to have two NOE .222"~.226" Expander Plugs so I set one up with the Universal Expanding Die for the .224" bullet. Wanting to be .001" over bullet diameter (same + over I use with cast bullets), I carefully measured and marked that point and the point of case contact so that I could use a little bit of math for quick die setup. In under two minutes, the die was ready, and I expanded the case with the .225" portion of the plug. The picture shows the results.

Image

I do need to order expanders for this family of cartridges; the 218 Bee, 25-20 Win, and 32-20 Win. I did remember why I had not done it yet, the 32-20 Win uses a stock pistol decapper and PTE Die, and I need to talk with the Custom guy and see if I can get a .314" EZ X Expander for the short die body. Right now with this cartridge I'm not using the PTED, but a Short Rifle Charging Die behind the UED with the NOE plug

So this week I'm going to order these EZ X Expanders. Like I noted in my previous post I will order these as a plus size against the stock .222" expander to avoid any confusion.
  • +.003" for .225", I have a thousand jacketed Bee bullets that need to be shot!
  • +.004" for .226" with my TLC225-50-RF
  • .259" for my TLC258-80-RF and the 25-20 Win. I will need to measure the stock expander first.
  • .314" for the TLC313-115-RF and the 32-20 Win (hopefully).
If a fellow was worried about the exact size, you could order .002" over bullet diameter and then sand & polish the expander down so that everything met your expectations. That is something to ponder.

Proof that I'm a full-service Admin! My bench is a mess after pushing my current projects aside and checking this stuff!

Image
Michael
Image
HankRearden
Posts: 25
Joined: 12 Feb 2017 11:49
My Press Choice: Turret
Location: Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 2 times

Re: 223 powder through expander die

Post by HankRearden »

LOL. Dude you and the rest of this forum rock. I really appreciate the feedback.
Post Reply

Return to “Product Ideas”