Lee Case lube question

[BrianT]

Thanks GasGuzzler!
That makes sense, especially from what I've seen this morning.
I think that it doesn't matter what ratio of whatever percent Alcohol to lube you use. Find a ratio that works for you, and get as consistent getting the cases lubed properly as possible, (and don't let it dry).
This morning I tried the 4.5oz alc:2oz lube, and with not too heavy a coat, and, like you said GasGuzzler, let it gel but not dry, and it was pretty consistent.
I also tried some old 50/50 alcohol/water, mixed 10:1 with the Lee lube, I just used more of it, and it was pretty consistent too.
I just have to get over the fact that the cases end up being 1.4545"- 1.4600" HS length.
Thanks again!

[Macd]

I use the zip lock bag and a 5-1 (approx.) ratio. Let sit awhile and size. I clean the die every now and then to remove build up. Never had a problem except once and I think I got a case that wasn't lubed into the batch. It stuck in an 8mm die. Won't make that mistake again.

[BrianT]

When you are doing large batches of mixed headstamp 223/556, I take it you are sorting the brass before you resize, but how far do you go with the sorting, I mean down to a lone headstamp, and adjust the die for each, do you just not load the headstamps where you have less of say 5 or 10 of each headstamp?
The problem I've been finding, is not stuck cases (not an issue), but the fact that if I resize 10 or 20 cases at a time, even the same headstamp, when I measure them all, or at least the ones that are close on the case gauge, I get 1-4 out of every 20 that are too long, and I put a drop of lube on them, wipe it off with my fingers, resize the case and it's now at the length I'm looking for.
Maybe I'm not being consistent enough with the application of the case lube?

[GasGuzzler]

How much too long? And this is why those who care a lot about case length trim after sizing.

[BrianT]

I wasn't clear enough. It's not the case length, but the headspace measurement, from the base to the datum/reference line.
I do trim, chamfer, and debur, after I resize.
I thought, for the last couple years, I had this 223 figured out, but I started shooting one of my other rifles, and I got a couple of stuck cases, I had to mortar them out of the chamber.
So I started measuring my chambers, and the rounds I had loaded and been shooting, and some of these rounds were a few thousandths longer than I should have made them, based on this tighter chamber.
I've since changed that barrel out, and it now measures very close to my other barrels, but some of these rounds were still a couple thousandths longer than I'd like, so I am kind of starting back at ground zero, as far as reloading/sizing 223.
Sorry this is so long, and I do appreciate your help!

[mr surveyor]

I don't work with any rimless bottlenecked brass, just thinking of things I've read .... may be nothing, but..

Can't you get shell holders that are milled down just a bit to allow you to set back the shoulder a little more?


jd

[BrianT]

I believe you can get the shell holders, and I know Lee will modify your sizing die pretty reasonably, but my issue is that the same cases that the headspace measures long out of let's say a lot of 20 cases sized, I just put a drop of the mixed Lee lube and alcohol on them, run them thru the same die/shell holder, and they size perfectly.
I'm really just trying to come up with a process for sizing bulk batches of 223, (even if I break the batch down to 20 cases at a time), where I don't have to measure every case with a comparator after sizing.
I wouldn't mind dropping each case into a case gauge to confirm the case was sized correctly, but every case gauge I've tried has been unreliable.
I started 3 years ago with a Lyman 223 case gauge, then bought an EGW 223 case/cartridge gauge, then a Sheridan Engineering slotted 223 gauge, and finally an L.E. Wilson 223 case gauge.
Some cases run thru them OK, others I can run the same case thru all 4 gauges and get 4 different results, and none of them are reliable enough to not have to revert to measuring the cases with a caliper/comparator setup.
Based on all of the testing I've done over the winter, and with all your help, I've drawn 2 conclusions:
1. I have to get better at a consistent application of the spray lube, but still will have to measure a certain number of sized cases, in addition to using the L.E. Wilson case gauge.
2. Instead of the .003-.005 shoulder setback I would like, I have to live with a .002- .009 shoulder setback.
I know my posts get long, maybe rambling, but I do appreciate your comments/help.

[mr surveyor]

yep, it was slightly milling down the length of the sizing die, not the shell holder, I was remembering reading...

jd

[RBHarter]

You have a chamber reamer , there are 6 specs for the 223/556 .
223 Rem .
223 Rem match .
5.56 US/Match .
5.56 NATO/CIP.
223 Wylde .
5.56 full auto with a long throat exact shoulder and fat base to ensure 100% 100% .

We have 20 barrel makers that use a set of reamers on any given day that could be a variation somewhere between the maximum over dimension of any the top 5 and the minus minimum of all but the full auto and 223 Match .

What do have here in the states like 5-6 major die makers plus 5-6 reamer manufacturers that may or may not supply a particular die maker with new reamers or reworks to cut costs and the only thing certain is that the maximum first cut dimension will be no more than .001 under minimum Match on the neck and shoulder OD at the body junction .

Of the above several 100 possible combinations we're going to go ahead and add a chamber gauge that could be cut with any given spec from nominal maximum match to a correct body dia and length from either the shoulder body or the shoulder neck .

That's just the tools that cut the hole in front of the bolt face or breach block , the swage tool for the case and the case gauge . That doesn't even begin to explore the shell holders , individual dimensions of a particular headspace gauge and manufacturing slop , err....a....finish assembly . Also we have expander pull .
Then we can add lot to lot tool wear , fractional alloy changes , your particular lot/s , and possibly mixed head stamps .
I forgot about bullet variations .... Ogive lengths which hole they came out of in the press where they're making a half million a day +- .0005 dia .

If it chambers freely in the intended arms 100% there's nothing else to do with it . If it doesn't a little Sharpie goes a long way towards figuring out what doesn't fit .
Frankly if I were faced with a 223/556 with fat heads I'd spring for a 9mm Bulge Buster before I spent for a Small Base die .
The perceived shoulder length issue may not be the problem but a symptom of it . It could be the expander pulling the shoulder , that would make it appear too long . The state of work hardening could be allowing the shoulder OD to be to big via spring back .

Last but not least you might just have a really tight chamber that is going to be really fussy about what brass goes back in it .

I once owned three 30-06's and loaded for 2 more .
The 1943 03A3 had a fat shoulder , no real surprise there it needed to chamber dented green cases laying in the mud .
The Savage 110LH circa 1965 was just long enough from head to neck/shoulder that it wouldn't chamber in the 1903A3 . I could have fixed that in the Savage but the fat shoulder of the 03' still wouldn't have chambered .
The 760 was long enough from the rim to the shoulder/body intersection to keep it out of both the Savage and 03' but the whole of the chamber was otherwise dimensionally small enough to call it a Match chamber . Why a slide action was cut so tight is beyond me .
The 1957 M70 would chamber any of the 3 but it required a firm hand on the bolt . Nominally sized it would return most of the brass to the 03 and the Savage but both required an equally firm hand to close the bolts , obviously it wasn't going in the 760 .

The last was a 700 BDL Lefty it would share to the 110,M70 ,and 03' but not from them and not from the or with the 760 .

To size for 100% compatibility I bought a second sizer die that happened to be just slightly shorter from all shoulder points than the one I bought with my first set up . Seriously like .0007-.001 on the cases above . I adjusted it to a hard contact in my Partner press dropped the ram and added another 1/8 turn . I could then size any available case to fit the 760 IF I let it rest cammed over for 10-15 seconds where I could watch the light gap between the shell holder and die shrink .

The cost of that was a 2" increase in group dia in the Savage and 1" in the M70 . The 700 BDL had always been a 1.5" rifle so any gain or loss there was attributed to the guy on the trigger .
Me and the 03' just never got to talking to one another .

I'm fortunate with the 223 I loaded for 4 rifles and only one needed any persuasive force to feed whatever was on the bench . I fixed that by resetting the headspace on the Savage that was having light strikes . Fixed the LS and the long cases . Feeds in 2 gas guns and 2 bolts no issues sized with .002 pinched between the shell holder and die .

[BrianT]

Thanks for the great info.
My issue is in getting a consistent sizing measurement,
I have 7 barrels, all semi-auto, no bolt guns. The fire formed brass from all 7 chambers are all within about .001" base to datum now, since swapping out one of the barrels as it was tighter that the others.
I'm just trying to find a method/process to get semi consistent base to shoulder measurements after resizing.
The plunk test is great, I just can't believe that everyone loads up 500 or 1000 rounds, and plunks every one.
I know what length I want to size to, but I just haven't been able to get consistent enough lengths, with the sizing methods I've tried, so far.