Hang Fires with S&B Large Rifle Primers??

[JohnnyEnfield]

Hello everyone. I have a very consistent issue of having hang fires in my 303 British rifle cartridges that I have been hand loading. I am not certain it is the Sellier and Bellot large rifle primers, but that is my first instinct.

The other issue that MAY be contributing to the issue is low capacity/density of the CFE 223 powder in the case. This was the only powder that was available at the store,that was listed in the Hodgdon manual for my particular loads, when I bought the powder. I have made several different hand loads, all with starting loads of 37.5 grains of CFE 223, following Hodgdon load manual. The first time out it was very cold 18 -20 degrees F and it was my first time shooting my new handloads. I had several hang fires in each group of hand loads. I thought cold temperatures may be a contributing factor. The factory ammunition, 2 kinds several boxes of each, performed perfectly with no hang fires. The bolt and firing pin are clean and appear to be getting nice strikes on all the primers.

This time out, trying new loads, same S&B primers, different bullets, warmer temperatures, probably 40's Fahrenheit, consistently had hang fires -even more consistently this time, at least half the hand loads were hang fires. Again, factory ammunition was perfect. I never had a failure to ignite, every hand loaded cartridge did work. But the hang fires were obvious "Click...BANG" pulling the trigger wait for half a second then BOOM. Maybe a little longer wait on some.

The case is relatively full of powder to my eye (70% maybe?). This is the first rifle cartridge I have reloaded, so I have no experience to go off, just reading I have done. I stood the cases up made sure they were not tipped downward just to try and alleviate powder volume issues. All flash holes were clean and unobstructed prior to priming. Two different types of Brass were used. Hornady (match brass cleaned and reloaded) and Herter's (cleaned and reloaded). I have used three bullets, 185 grain pulled Russian FMJ, 180 grain Speer hot core, and Missouri bullets 167 gr coated lead (these were not large enough diameter so I stopped using them). In each case, I had hangfires with my hand loads and both the Hornady factory ammo and the Herter's factory ammo, multiple boxes, had no hang fires.

I have used several hundred S&B Large and small PISTOL primers and not one has failed to fire or ever given me an issue of any kind. I think these Large RIFLE primers from Sellier and Bellot are not good. Please chime in with your opinions and advice. I found a video on youtube today where "Johnny's reloading bench" had problems with S&B small rifle primers in 6.5 Creedmor and he thinks they gave him hang fires and failures to fire. Maybe it is common. Please give me your ideas and advice. Thank you.

[Macd]

Bit of a stumper for me. Never had a hang fire in all my reloading. I use Federal and CCI primers. Have used CFE223 in both 308 and 223 without a hitch. Try pulling a couple of rounds and inspecting the powder for clumping including sticking to the bottom inside the case. I just read a post today on another forum where a guy was having ignition issues and the problem appeared to be related to sizing lube contamination of the inside of the case. He was using a spray lube. Cross contamination of the primer could also result. Only suggestion I can offer.

[9x80Drilling]

That's good advice from Macd. I would also check to see that the primers are fully seated in the primer pockets. I've had misfires, but not hangfires, from light primer strikes when I failed to firmly seat primers.

And then the next thing I would try is to fire empty, primed cases and listen to the reports. I'd prolly shoot 20 or so, carefully listening to the primer detonations.

Other posters will soon chime in, I'd wager.

[Ranch Dog]

I've never experienced a hang fire either.; my either reloading life I've only used CCI or Federal primers. I've had primer strikes that did not detonate because the primer was not fully seated, but they fired on the second attempt.

I was just researching some primer stuff yesterday. When it comes to seating a primer the SAAMI spec is flat with the base of the case up to a .008" depth below the base of the case. If deeper is needed the primer pocket is out of spec.

[RBHarter]

I'm reaching a little bit here but how does the bolt close on factory ammo vs your own ?

I just went through a very similar situation with a 223 . Most of the ammo was fine but 1 brand had misfires . It turned out that the case was riding out the firing pin strike so it looked like a good strike but it wasn't some measurements showed that the bolt face to shoulder was too long . Thankfully it is a Savage and I have the wrench and barrel blocks .

I'm suspect that the factory ammo is formed with a fat body or shoulder that drags and your sizing is taking it down to what it is supposed to be . Now you have a little head space and not enough strike energy to fully ignite the primer .

A lot of New Zealanders shoot the old Enfields and have found that a lap of scotch tape around the base or an 0ring under the rim (chamber side) will hold the case tight and centered against the bolt face and allow a good fire form . After that they mostly just neck size .

The lube is a good possibility also .
I doubt the powder volume is the problem .
It could be just a bad lot of primers also but a change of lube technique and 0 rings are cheap .

[JohnnyEnfield]

Thank you for your replies. All my brass was fire formed (no o ring though) and neck sized. Only being fired in the one rifle. Hand cleaned and then primed with the Lee ram prime. All the primers looked to be seated perfectly and I know the flash holes and primer pockets were clean, I cleaned each by hand. There was no case lube used at all and I cleaned the necks in and out by hand to make sure they were clean. I really think the primers are bad.

I will buy and try some Winchester primers I saw at a local gun shop. I will get different powder eventually too. Ranch Dog had suggested Hybrid 100V and that seems like a winner to me. I will shoot the rest as loaded with the S&B primers and see what happens.

I LOVE the learning and it has been FUN. Hopefully I get in the local gun club in February or March and have access to a rifle range full time. Stay safe guys.

[Macd]

An older post from the hand loads forum.
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_posts ... 34446&PN=1
Sound familiar?

I love a good mystery so I did some further thinking and reading. Is it possible that the primers are being crushed causing the anvil to break up the primer pellet?

[Ohio3Wheels]

Any number of things slightly out of spec could cause that. The first thing that jumps to mind is anvils a little high, but you would think QC would catch that. Short (shallow) but just in spec cups, shallow primer pocket. Years ago I went through a spate of hang fires with my 6.5-06 and one box of CCI magnum large rifle primers. A fellow I shot with suggested the same thing, crushed and lest effective pellets, I was using H414 at the time and had found that it took a pretty good impulse to get it going. I tried the last 20 0f those primers in the wife's 788 in 22/250 and had 4 or 5 hang fires with it. The next box I bought, different lot, were fine and I've not had any problems since. Still using mostly CCI but Winchester and Federals also find their way on the shelf.

Make smoke,

[Macd]

One last suggestion. Take a fired case and chamber it. Pull the trigger and listen carefully. 1 or 2 clicks. Suggestion was from a friend who was an army weapons tech. If two clicks suspect a firing pin problem. This is often caused by grease or oil in really cold conditions.

[JohnnyEnfield]

Macd, thanks for the info and the link to the Handloads.com forum. The issue that guy had is exactly like mine. I need to look closer at the primers to see if I notice anything. I did not think I crushed them at all but who knows. They seem like something is wrong with them for sure. I will try out the empty case too.