Aging Brass

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Aging Brass

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

After I got my Henry Big Boy steel in 44 mag I dug around in the closet and found a few boxes of ammo both commercial and hand loads that I had for use in the TC Contender with the shot barrel. The hand loads all date from the early 90s and one box of 100 is Winchester cases, 180 grain Sierra JHC and 29.0 grains of H110 with CCI MLP primers. About 20 of these had been fired in the Contender and finding no notes to the contrary I figure they were okay as they're still around. I ran 20 of them in the Henry yesterday and 11 of those had neck splits that ranged from barely noticeable to half way down the case. Looking at notes from back then I noted that the load was 1/2 grain under max, however the current (6th) edition of the Sierra manual doesn't list H110 for pistol loads and in the rifle section H110 tops out at slightly over 27.6 grains. I don't intend to fire these remaining 60 in either gun. The plan is to pull the bullets, dump the old H110, the dilemma is the cases are they old and brittle and couldn't handle the near max load and are maybe not worth reloading or are they usable for somewhat lighter loads.

Opines, please.

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Re: Aging Brass

Post by mr surveyor »

would annealing the "mouth 1/2" of the brass help?


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Re: Aging Brass

Post by RBHarter »

Annealing would be my suggestion too . I've run into 38 Special , but that brass was 50+ yr old and possibly tainted with corrosive primers .
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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Ranch Dog »

My thoughts concern the chamber difference, slight as they might be, between the Contender and Henry. None the less, I wouldn't shoot them in the Henry. Do you still have the Contender or any other 44 Mag to try? If they performed the same, I would chuck it all except the bullets.

Do you have any records indicating how many cycles are on the brass?
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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

I still have the Contender and will get it out and give it a try. Second loading on that brass.
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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

And while on the subject of the 44 mag does anyone know why there are different SAAMI standard for pistol and rifle?

In the manuals we get loads for rifle and pistol, but if you look at a shelf full of commercial 44 mags none say for rifle or pistol. They're just 44 magnum.

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Re: Aging Brass

Post by RBHarter »

It probably goes back to BP and the paper thin brass and .440 dia neck rifle and .440 dia pistol cases of heavier brass .
It allows for separation of tougher rifle bullets from pistol . As I understand it the 444 is a 44 Super mag having a similar relationship as 45 Colts , 454 , 460 S&W to 44-40 , mag and 444 . There several "lost" 44 cal BP rifle cartridges for Sharps etc . It may even have been a Winchester thing with the 44-40 in an effort to not sell Rem , Colts , S&W , or Marlin ammo . Many of the old cartridges were exactly the same cartridges and loading but branded to individual makers . 38 S&W , 38 Short Colts , 38 Colts New Police , 38-200 , 380 Weebly(?) come to mind off the top .
It was a different time .
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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

Possible, but since the 44 mag grew out of the 44 spl that at least according to Wikipedia was smokeless from inception I think there may be more going on. The most notable difference I see is the 12 lans and grooves in the rifle. I put the bore scope into the Henry last night to check the chamber for problems from the split cases and there wasn't any thing visible, but the 12 groove rifling is intriguing compared to other bores I've looked at.

Anyway it's one of those interesting oddities in firearms that may have its origin in the cloudy past and maybe no one is left that knows.

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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Ranch Dog »

I imagine Henry is using the 12 groove rifling because that is the SAAMI Spec for a 44 Mag Rifle.
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Re: Aging Brass

Post by Macd »

I have been researching the quality variability of brass cartridge cases both new and fired and started a thread in another post. Here are some of my preliminary conclusions from this research and my own, albeit limited, experience. Please note that these comments apply generally to all cartridge brass and are not specific to 44 Magnum. Also note I said preliminary so further research may prove some to be erroneous.

Brass "fails" for a number of reasons and usually a combination of more than one.
1. Work Hardened
Too many reloads between annealing or inadequate annealing. Over flaring with subsequent hard crimping may cause cracking around the case mouth. Oversize bullets may also increase the work hardening process.

2. Chamber Specs
Military rifles often have lots of chamber space to allow for dirty, corroded or out of spec rounds. They are hard on brass as the case stretches significantly more than in a commercial chamber and full length sizing works the brass more. Brass fired several times in a tight chamber obviously stretches less, requires less sizing and still has capacity to yield enough not to fail when fired in the same chamber. Take the case and use it in a firearm with more space and the brass stretches beyond its maximum yield point and fails. An out of round chamber will also play havoc with cases.

3. Stress Cracking or Seasoning
This is a combination of the residual stresses left in the brass from manufacture and loading combined with chemical attack by ammonia. Ammonia may be present in man made materials particularly some cleaning products, in the soil or anywhere animal urine decomposes releasing ammonia into the surrounding air. Humid conditions accelerate this process. As brass hardens its elasticity decreases and neck tensions increase adding more stress to the case.

4. Initial Brass Quality
Not all brass is created equal. Virgin brass made from virgin copper and zinc in the right proportion (~70/30%) is expensive. Most brass stock has a large proportion of recycled materiel. This may introduce ratios outside the ideal as well other metals such as iron and aluminum. Even virgin brass may contain less copper as copper is almost twice as expensive as zinc. The case manufacturing process also plays an important part as the best brass is made by drawing rather than extrusion and annealed by induction rather than flame.

5. Chamber Pressure
I am still learning the science here but what I have read, my own experience and anecdotal reports seem to indicate a direct relationship of chamber pressure and pressure curve to case longevity. Changes in the distribution of the brass in the case resulting in thinning of walls may result The a thickening of the neck, reducing it's room to expand, a case mouth jammed in the throat, an over length round, or just a hot load may cause cause pressures to over-stress the case. The jury is still out on whether pressures are a factor in work hardening.

One day I will stop jumping into the weeds :lol:
Last edited by Macd on 27 Apr 2019 09:26, edited 1 time in total.
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