Problem 45 Colt cases

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Royce
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Royce »

I can't use loads that hot in my pistol which is a Smith Model 25-2 that was fitted with a 45 Colt cylinder in the 1970's. The current loading uses Berry's 250 grain Copper Plated flat point bullets over either 231 or Unique.

Looking at the cases carefully has led me to notice that maybe 1/4 of them have one or more extractor marks indicating they were fired from a Winchester style lever rifle with a very sharp extractor. Some of the cases have two such marks indicating the cases were likely reloaded at least once previously.
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

Royce wrote:<snip>

Then I got to thinking maybe the resizing process changed things. So I ran all of them through the decapping / sizing die. Now all the Western cases measured as much as 1.290"! All of the Western cases were at least 1.285".

Surprisingly so were most of the other brands. I have cases marked Winchester, W-W, WRA, and FC that all are over 1.280". Meanwhile all of the R-P cases were less than 1.275" after depriming and sizing.

I have a lot of trimming to do.
If cases are really large (diameter) from firing in a big chamber and you resize back to SAAMI the "extra" brass has to go somewhere usually into increased length. Do watch those cases carefully as all that stretching can result in head separations which can be either annoying or painful. You can make a tool from a straightened out paper clip, bend a short 1/8" section on one end then a few file strokes to give it and edge. Start at the bottom of the case inside and drag that up the case wall if you're getting case separations starting you'll feel the groove with the tool.

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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Royce »

None of them measures large in diameter so that's not why they are so long. In fact the Lee Case Trimmer tool won't even go inside any of them until they have been run through the powder flaring die. Of course you also have to have a decapped case, so all of them are also run through the decapping and resizing die first.

I use a cordless drill with the case sizer and then debur the same way. It took maybe 10 minutes for 50 cases to be trimmed and deburred. Then another 5 minutes for cleaning the primer pockets.

Ohio3Wheels wrote:
If cases are really large (diameter) from firing in a big chamber and you resize back to SAAMI the "extra" brass has to go somewhere usually into increased length. Do watch those cases carefully as all that stretching can result in head separations which can be either annoying or painful. You can make a tool from a straightened out paper clip, bend a short 1/8" section on one end then a few file strokes to give it and edge. Start at the bottom of the case inside and drag that up the case wall if you're getting case separations starting you'll feel the groove with the tool.

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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

I decap nearly all of my cases with a universal decapping die and trim before I resize. None of my arbors fit in a sized case at least the arbor for the Hornady and Forester are that way. Been a while since I used any of my Lee trimmers so I don't recall about their fit. Personally I wouldn't trim after flaring the case mouth, YMMV.

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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Royce »

The Lee case trimming tool won't fit in 45 Colt cases unless the case mouth has been flared. The full length resizing tool works only on the outside of the case. So the mouth of the case retains some of the previous crimp until the flaring step is done. After trimming the cases that were the longest would still need to be flared again. The R-P cases, being shortest, are untouched by the trimmer and running them through the flaring tool again is necessary because that's where powder drop happens. They don't get flared again because they are still flared.
Ohio3Wheels wrote:I decap nearly all of my cases with a universal decapping die and trim before I resize. None of my arbors fit in a sized case at least the arbor for the Hornady and Forester are that way. Been a while since I used any of my Lee trimmers so I don't recall about their fit. Personally I wouldn't trim after flaring the case mouth, YMMV.

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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Ranch Dog »

I decap all my cases a Universal Decapping die, that's where everything starts for me. They don't see a sizing die until they are on the Turret press or Load-Master. So all mine see a Lee Case Length Gauge before they ever get to the dies. As a note, I have started using the Lee HD Guided Decappers with my Universal Decapping Dies and love them. The straighten bent case mouths out and overall are a very nice fit for this conditioning start point.

Honestly, seventeen of the thirty cartridges I reload are straight wall cartridges, and I have not seen what you are describing Royce. I have seen a couple of case length gauges that have a tight fit. As they rotate, they heat up, making it tough to trim. I've sanded them down and returned one. I've also learned that a case needs to be clean before you use a Lee Case Length Gauge.

As a note, a lot of users do not realize that the Lee Case Length Gauge length should be checked, and adjusted before use. The most common complaint of the tool is that it trims too short which is a good thing in that SAAMI variation is on the minus side. That said you can adjust it to the Max. See this topic.

Have you ever made a casting of the cylinder of your pistol? I'm wondering if the issue is with the replacement cylinder and it's cut.
45Auto_vs_45Colt.jpg
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Macd »

Have read this with interest. My experience leads me to believe that rimmed cases grow in tight cylinders not loose ones. With insufficient room to expand in diameter the brass stretches in the direction of least resistance. This is toward the case mouth. This is exacerbated by increased pressure from heavy loads and excessive crimp. Also do not discount the friction reducing effect that carbon fouling on the outside of cases has on case grip on the wall of the cylinder. This, as mentioned, is a problem for the 45 Colt.

Case mouth splits are an indication of work hardened brass. Everytime the mouth is resized, flared and then crimped it gets harder. Eventually it is so hard it fails when subjected to the peak pressure of the load. Never had a rimless case with a mouth split but have seen it in rimmed cases several times. Body splits seem the rule for rimless.
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Royce »

None of these cases were ever fired previously in my pistol. They came from a gun range in central Texas near Belton.

Ranch Dog wrote:
Have you ever made a casting of the cylinder of your pistol? I'm wondering if the issue is with the replacement cylinder and it's cut.
45Auto_vs_45Colt.jpg
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Jeff H »

My observations parallel Michael's on 45 Colt brass.

When I was a kid, 45 Colt brass that I saw, which wasn't a lot, was different, and all the geezers would tell you it "wasn't as strong as 44 Mag brass." Some time within the past 50 years, something changes and the started making 45 Colt brass just like 44 mag brass - I swear. The rims used to be smaller, there was no groove at the juncture of the walls and the rim and the mouths seemed thinner - to me. I no longer have a sample of an old case - gave it away to a guy who wouldn't believe me.

Also, "Western" brass - it's got some years on it and I have had a lot of "old" brass crack on me, especially if it's loaded. Doesn't have to be all that old either. I just broke down a bunch of 6.5x284s loaded in once-fired brass and probably 30% of the necks were cracked, mouth to shoulder. I've had "vintage" nickled 357 cases split more often than any unplated case.

Also, if the brass was ever exposed to ammonia fumes, that's not good either. I knew a fella used to put Brasso in his tumbler. Same fella I got the 6.5x284 cases from.
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Re: Problem 45 Colt cases

Post by Royce »

I think you are right. The Western boxes that I have (both are for .38 Special Target Wadcutter) are probably no newer than 1970's. I don't think I have seen anything newer. Even though the ammo is 40+ years old it is very accurate.

Jeff H wrote:My observations parallel Michael's on 45 Colt brass.

When I was a kid, 45 Colt brass that I saw, which wasn't a lot, was different, and all the geezers would tell you it "wasn't as strong as 44 Mag brass." Some time within the past 50 years, something changes and the started making 45 Colt brass just like 44 mag brass - I swear. The rims used to be smaller, there was no groove at the juncture of the walls and the rim and the mouths seemed thinner - to me. I no longer have a sample of an old case - gave it away to a guy who wouldn't believe me.

Also, "Western" brass - it's got some years on it and I have had a lot of "old" brass crack on me, especially if it's loaded. Doesn't have to be all that old either. I just broke down a bunch of 6.5x284s loaded in once-fired brass and probably 30% of the necks were cracked, mouth to shoulder. I've had "vintage" nickled 357 cases split more often than any unplated case.

Also, if the brass was ever exposed to ammonia fumes, that's not good either. I knew a fella used to put Brasso in his tumbler. Same fella I got the 6.5x284 cases from.
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