Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

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Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

Similar Topics should pull up the "Blues" topic started by Maximumbob54 that details the comments of the BHN of aging bullets. The following is from an email that I just sent a friend that is very involved in the cast bullet business, who has been very instrumental in my success, and who wanted to see my results from the heat treating.[hr]Wanted to wait a bit for the hardening results from my oven treatment. Looking pretty good! I baked some water quenched bullets that had been 21 BHN but over the years went down to 13 BHN, discovered this while trying to figure out why my loads had gone to heck.
oven_heat_quench_01.jpg
I baked them for an hour at 450 and then dumped them into a Igloo cooler full of water that I chilled with ice from my ice machine, removing the ice from the water prior to the drop. Immediate after the drop, they remained at 13 but started to harden over the next couple of days. At 48 hours they sat at 21 and at 52 hours 28 BHN.
oven_heat_quench_02.jpg
oven_heat_quench_03.jpg
I haven't gone out to check the bullets this morning yet. The question remain as to the why they went flat. I have some Beartooth Bullets that are at least 10 years old and have not changed a bit from the 21 BHN they arrived at. Marshall, of Beartooth, and I visited last year and I remember him claiming that a minimum of 5% antimony was everything when it came to hard bullets. So, I went back to your Alloy Calculator to see what I did wrong as I thought I was casting at that level.
mix_rds current.jpg
I worked with my mix a bit and I think the mark that I was missing was not properly accounting for the lead that in the #8 shot that I was using. Using the component make up listed on RotoMetals, I made a custom alloy (#8 Shot) and immediately saw the adverse effect of the volume of pure lead in that shot.

What I'm thinking is that for all my future casting, I will start using the linotype that I have along with wheel weights and tin to achieve a Lyman #2 clone for use with my bullets that are .375" or greater:
mix_linotype to lyman.jpg
After speaking with a friend that has some printshop knowledge, I think I need to determine the specific gravity of the "type" that I have because it could be a mix of lino, mono, or stereotype as it they were probably indiscriminate in their use of the type. In that it was a very small newspaper and I have several large bars of linotype stamped stock from the shop, my hope is that paper was small enough that they ordered only it.

I've also never determined the specific gravity of my wheel weights simply because I only have the Lee balance beam scale (Safety Scale) and it is rather limited in weight capacity. I just bought a like new Lyman Pro 1000 on eBay ($25!) and once it arrives will use go through the procedure outlined with your Alloy Calculator to determine both my type and wheel weights.

Where I hope to go with my 30 & 35 caliber bullets is the following mix.
mix_rd_30.jpg
The linotype might very a bit after the SG determination and I have quite a bit of pure lead that has a builder has brought me. This fellow specializes in rebuild the century old homes in our area and there is quite a bit of lead in them from the plumbing through window sash weight bars. I probably ought to get a reading on both the SG and BHN of that alloy as well.

I've actually shot a bunch of pure linotype bullets a decade ago and did not have fragmentation issues that are claimed. Killed a bunch of hogs with them, never recovered a bullet and there was a always huge cookie cutter hole cut through them from the meplat.

I hard hunting bullet for the various bolt guns that I now shoot, I would like to get them up to the jacketed bullet accuracy and speed if possible but it will take a better alloy than I've been casting with. Thinking of going with straight linotype for my 22 bullets.[hr]The oven...
bullet_oven.jpg
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Maximumbob54 »

I'm pretty sure at this point if (when, sigh....) I go back to casting rifle bullets then it will all be done with Roto metals pre done alloy of some sort. I'm not sure I want to rely in water quenching them anymore for the hardness.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by 357cyrus »

How many times did you get away with doing that in the kitchen before the Mrs. made you buy that cute little thing? My wife came home one time when I had melted down old fishing worms in our microwave, to cast new ones in a mold I'd made. Stunk to high heaven... T-R-O-U-B-L-E In all serious though... Glad your solution worked out. How many do you think you'll save from the melting pot this way?
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

Maximumbob54 wrote:I'm pretty sure at this point if (when, sigh....) I go back to casting rifle bullets then it will all be done with Roto metals pre done alloy of some sort. I'm not sure I want to rely in water quenching them anymore for the hardness.
Anybody interested in becoming a bullet caster, especially a rifle bullet caster would be miles ahead just purchasing Lyman #2, from a source such as RotoMetals, and forgetting wheel weights especially if they have been manufactured in this century. Lyman #2 has everything a bullet need, especially what is missing in the wheel weights; appropriate volumes of tin and antimony.

I really don't see not water quenching a rifle bullet. You gain 6 points of BHN right off the bat and starting with Lyman #2's base of 15, you immediately have a very useful rifle bullet sitting at 21 BHN. Gas checked, that will survive 42.0K PSI without issue, yet the alloy is not brittle.
357cyrus wrote:How many times did you get away with doing that in the kitchen before the Mrs. made you buy that cute little thing? My wife came home one time when I had melted down old fishing worms in our microwave, to cast new ones in a mold I'd made. Stunk to high heaven... T-R-O-U-B-L-E In all serious though... Glad your solution worked out. How many do you think you'll save from the melting pot this way?
I only tried it back in the '90s when my wife was out of town for awhile. I shut it down real quick. The alox coat bullets smoked a bit but not as bad as I thought. The lube stuck to them like glue.

As far how many can be saved, all of them but I probably will not do that as the volume of a number of the bullet cartridges I shoot are just too many. I feel that the problem that I experienced is related to the lack of antimony in the lead. Mine are probably sitting at 3% and I feel, based on what I've read and been told, it should be 5% or greater for the hardness to stand up to time. As I related, I have bullets that were cast with Lyman #2 and some with Linotype heavy mixes and they are still as tough as they were the day I dropped them in the bucket.

With the 32 Win Special as example, I probably don't need more than 20 bullets a year as I just don't shoot my Marlin 336RC but I have no intention of seeing it gone. Yet, I probably have 250 TLC323-170-RFs sitting in bin, checked and waiting to be used. For bullets that I've cast with my current mix, those cast in the last 10 years, I'm going to use a three year shelf limit and reduce the rest to ingots. So, I will bake about 70 to 75 bullets and smelt the rest.

Where I see the oven as a value is in providing for a uniform BHN. Just as primer seating depth, powder charge, and a constant value of anything else matters to MOA, so should BHN. I see BHN wander a bit with my water quenched bullets as they drop from the mold, say... 3 units (19 to 21 BHN), and this is probably related to the time from pour to splash. As an example, I will see some bullets that were obviously too hot when they hit the water as the nose is bent or contains blems.

The oven brings all the bullets to a constant temperature just below the melting point and they all move together to the cold water so the temperature change across individual bullets against the others is fairly uniform.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Maximumbob54 »

I'm just shy now about quenching as again I was in this for long term. For short term of course it makes sense. But I wanted that bucket of ammo to last a good long time. It's literally a bucket. It's a Blue Bunny ice cream bucket that I used to use for collecting up brass at the range. The bucket just sets on a shelf and doesn't get moved any so I wasn't worried about the ammo getting all jingle jangled up. Instead, now I have a bucket to get pulled... I guess the answer really is to just to either buy harder alloy up front or quench slightly cheaper alloy and never cast so many. Maybe that six cavity mold really is a double edged sword sometimes...
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

Maximumbob54 wrote:I'm just shy now about quenching as again I was in this for long term. For short term of course it makes sense. But I wanted that bucket of ammo to last a good long time. It's literally a bucket. It's a Blue Bunny ice cream bucket that I used to use for collecting up brass at the range. The bucket just sets on a shelf and doesn't get moved any so I wasn't worried about the ammo getting all jingle jangled up. Instead, now I have a bucket to get pulled...
Maybe a couple of small steps first. If you don't have a BHN tester, why don't you pull five and stick them in a padded envelop and send them me to see what the BHN is and see if it is consistent across the five. Use a kinetic puller if you can as I would like to hear if the gas checks are staying on them when pulled. Would you consider this?
Maximumbob54 wrote:I guess the answer really is to just to either buy harder alloy up front or quench slightly cheaper alloy and never cast so many. Maybe that six cavity mold really is a double edged sword sometimes...
The answer is to buy harder alloy up front or mix what you have with another alloy to obtain a minimum of 5% antimony or higher and quench them for the 5 to 6 BHN gain. At least that is what I'm thinking now :roll: :?:

I've been testing my old bullets and those cast with some mix of linotype have hung in there and it has to be the antimony content. Same with 15 year old Beartooths, hard as a rock.

[hr]
I have some 35 caliber bullets that haven't been doing good, my TLC359-190-RF design, that were cast with some mix of linotype and wheel weights (my notes are not more specific about the percent of each). After ten years, they still sit at 19 BHN but they shoot terrible. I had a tough time seating gas checks and with the short neck of the 35 Rem case, I have always suspected that the check was the problem. I feel they were departing the bullet at combustion, creating some type of secondary pressure bump as they collided with the bullet and just doing their best to mess up the performance.

Despite the high BHN, I decided to bake them in the oven to see what they did. Well at 400º, all hell broke loose! About 75% of the gas checks popped loose from the bullets! It sounded like pop corn. They are curing now so once they their BHN settles I will chamfer the gas check shank with the NOE tool and start with them again to see if I can get a better gas check fit. As I recall there was just a lip or burr on the gas check shank of the bullet that was making it difficult to seat the check. These were cast with my original TLC359-190-RF two cavity mold which I think I sold to someone. I sold a Marlin 336SC because of these bullets, blaming the crappy performance on it but I suspect it might have just been this lot of bullets. When I baked my TLC310-180-RF bullets, not one gas check departed the bullets.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

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Going to get on this today I hope. Had planned to cast the alloy mix this morning but my Dad needs me to drive him to Victoria and back.

I had pulled out my last stash of TLC311-170-RFs, I wanted to size them to .309" & .310" for the load work on the Savage 340 but durn if those buggers have not fallen from 21 BHN to 14. My log says they were cast this time back in 2012. Gon'na stick with a 3 year supply even with the harder BHN until I know they are good beyond.

I shot the rifle with the few remaining factory loads I had a couple of Win 170-grain and a couple of Rem 150-grain. The 170's were good the 150's were outstanding, single hole. I also loaded some Hornady #3060, 170-grain FP with Varget. They too were so-so. Will try the Speer #2017 150-grain RN today as well to see how they do.[hr]
Note to self. Good thing I saved my target mix as a screenshot here on the forum as I didn't save it in the calculation! Spent a lot of time studying that mix.

If I look close, I can see trace evidence of copper fouling with this tight bore/groove (.300/.307) barreled rifle.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

MaxBob hasn't been online in a while but I thought I would report back concerning the "reconditioning" of hard bullets that have gone soft. My Part II & III has been addressing my work with linotype but back on this topic of bullet age resulting in a lowering of the BHN, I have found that oven treating corrects it. Roasting a pan of bullets at 440° for an hour and then quenching the pan it cold water results in excess of 21 BHN. The results are also very consistent with the BHN not varying a number.

My bullets that haven't had any antimony added (#8 magnum shot) results in a BHN of 21. Bullets that have had the shot added when cast results in 25 BHN. They cure and stabilize at 48 hours.

I remain steadfast in my belief that in order for a bullet to survive beyond a few years at this BHN level that it requires a minimum of 5% antimony in the mix. I've also started adding that it must also have 5% tin in the mix as well. These rules of thumb are coming from checking the BHN of my older cast bullet stock against my casting log.

I'm cooking a tray of bullets everyday I can and the results are consistent. Going to to do a tray of my huge 444 Marlin bullets today, that's the TLC432-355-RF, a big old boy! I did a tray a couple of days ago for 25 BHN and will do one more today along with my 32 Win Spl bullets (TLC323-180-RF).

If the bullets have been lubed with Alox, they are going to smoke like crazy. The end result is that you end up with black bullets but I just lube them again with the Ben's TL mix and I'm back in business.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ranch Dog »

Here is what the reheated bullets look like, the ones that had already been lubed. These are my TLC460-300-RF. I resize them to .458 (already sized) and use them with my Rossi Rio Grande 4570 Govt.
rebaked_bullets.jpg
On a roll today, little oven is just a humming. I suspect that I'm going to reharden 800 to 1,000 bullets today. Heck of a lot better than recasting them.
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Re: Curing the 30 Caliber Blues... Part I

Post by Ohio3Wheels »

A brief mention of something I was told a lot of years ago by an old time printer about scape/used linotype. He told that most of it that go scraped instead of reused was because the tin had "burned" out of it and it stopped making good type. The last I had was from a salvage yard in a chunk a little smaller than a bowling ball, yah heavy. To reduce it to pot size I smacked it with a 3 pound sledge and it broke. So far I've found that about 2 lbs of it mixed with 20 pounds of cable sheath makes pretty good leading free boolits.

Cable sheath is said to be a good source of antinmonial lead but I don't know the precentage or if it was even standardized among cable makers.

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