350 Legend

[Jeff H]

Excellent question, Michael!

Short answer: In Ohio, the 35-30 wouldn't pass muster because there IS a SHOULDER - it's a "bottle-neck." It may or may not be written that way in the actual text of the law, but that's the boiled down affect.

I'm not a lawyer either. This is my interpretation as a hunter reading the information provided by ODNR, which one MUST read each year because it changes.

The "straight-wall" moniker is a misnomer - a nick-name, colloquialism, and inaccurate as well as incomplete. The 38-5 and 375, as well as other legal cartridges have "straight" walls too - but yet they're tapered! Maybe some day the 35-30 WILL be OK based on logic and reason, but for now - we're getting there. One would have to read the actual text of the law and know the history to understand and it's just not worth it to do that.

There's a lot to it and the law has evolved for the better in Ohio since we first got handguns approved for hunting deer a few decades ago. The DNR has made and effort, listened to hunters and made decisions/drawn lines which are reasonable and practical - until we find a better way to define cartridges which are safe in the hands of idiots in a state which is both very flat (a large portion of it) and very densely populated, even in rural areas.

I also don't personally know or associate with anyone in this state who is as unhappy about the law as so many people on other forums whom it does not affect and who know nothing more about it than the misleading nick-name it has. I appreciate the tone and direction of this thread on this forum, so thank you all for not "going there."

The laws are complicated and boring and not perfect, but we're getting there and I am very pleased that I can hunt with a lever action 44 Mag (or 45-70), my 357 Max in a Contender Carbine, and my neighbor can carry his "black rifle" afield if he wants - as long as he has no more than THREE ROUNDS TOTAL in the gun.

Yeah, technically and ballistically, even the 30-30 should pass muster too, but if we'd waited until someone figured out how to keep creative minds from subverting or circumventing the law, we'd still be shooting slugs-only here while we wait. Remember, the law has to be enforced and we have very few game officers covering vast areas. They won't have time to have a ballistic debate in the field and carry micrometers, chronographs and strain gauges.

With that, you also have my apologies for the long post which has little to do with the intrigue and possibilities for a new cartridge spawned by something which affects some of us and need not be dissected for the purposes of enjoying the cartridge itself.

[Jeff H]

Oh, and while I'm not crazy about every aspect of this new round, I'd love to be able to carry a CZ 527 Carbine chambered in 357 Max. afield to hunt deer and this may just be the vehicle for realizing such a dream.

I'd have my bore/chamber cut to accommodate .358" but an hesitant regarding how the bullets I'd want to use would feed. The commercial bullets for this cartridge seem to be shaped such that they allow this case to FEED and I don't want to be forced into that specific a bullet even if I am casting them for myself.

I'm also not crazy about the esoteric nature of the brass, having no existing parent cartridge. Looking back, I once had a VZ 24 Mauser action set aside for a "45-70 98 bolt-gun" using the 450 Marlin, which my gunsmith and I had determined we could do without finding a Siamese Mauser. I had bullets, dies, a bunch of once-fired brass,....

That idea took a back seat to many other unfinished projects, but I might have been left holding the bag on brass. I'm not sure if anyone's making it yet, but I really prefer to have options such that brass doesn't hold me back.

I HAVE this base covered with a 357 Max Contender Carbine and am happy with the setup, but I'd sure like to have a cute little CZ 527 deer rifle that I can use in Ohio too.

I'm watching. At least here, the thread probably won't go off into the weeds as it has elsewhere and we can get somewhere on the cartridge and its possible alternate platforms.

[Ohio3Wheels]

Jeff, Midway lists Starline, Winchester and Hornady brass for the Legend. I know all about the nay sayers who don't even hunt in Ohio. When the rifle law was first passed I found it annoying that they skipped over all the great 40 calibers which left my Sharps in 4o-65 sitting in the safe for dear season. With the re-write to match the pistol rules, bore diameter and straight wall I was able to cary the Sharps. It's not a handy woods gun but I have 3 levers and another single shot that make up for that. So looking forward to the season this year, health issue kept me out of the woods after early November last year but ready to go this year. I'll be interested to hear what you do with the Legend idea and of course any results.

Make smoke,

[Jeff H]

...........health issue kept me out of the woods after early November last year but ready to go this year. I'll be interested to hear what you do with the Legend idea and of course any results.

Make smoke,

Yes, me too, except that they weren't my own health issues - still no woods time for a while for me. Not looking much better this year, so I guess I have plenty of time to see how the 350 fares over the next couple years until I can rationalize it into this tight little personal battery concept.

I have to tell you that I am tickled to death that you get to shoot that 40 Sharps now. No, not a treat to carry, but it's cool that you can take it out and actually hunt with it without going to the expense of an out of state trip.

As for the brass,.....

The closer I get to retirement age, the farther away retirement seems. I started cutting back and formulating a sparse but versatile and economical personal battery - from the actual firearms to what it takes to feed them by casting and hand-loading. I've done extremely well at realizing a forty year old dream of simplicity and economy in a small but versatile and interesting battery I can live with.

So, if you please, sir, stop poking holes in my rationalizations for not running out and buying a 350 or rebarreling a rifle for it.

I've seen the brass at Midway too. If this cartridge could be made with 223 brass, I'd have sent a rifle off to be rebarreled already, so I'm a little relieved that there are a few "excuses" I can use to hold off at least a year.

My questions are going to be more about how existing bolt-action magazines (fixed and removable) work with the taper and how necessary the long, pointy, cone-shaped commercial bullets are to feeding. Will I be able to shoot my 180 Grain WFNs? Will the RCBS 35-200 fit in a magazine and feed? Will someone have a reamer which is more accommodating to the .358" diameter?

I wish I were the one plowing that ground myself, but I'm freeloading on this one waiting to see what everyone else comes up with.

[Ohio3Wheels]

Sounds like a good plan. Were I in a position to acquire a 350 I think I would go with the Ruger American. It can be had for considerably less than an upper and my lone center fire MSR is a polymer frame and while I think it would be okay I don't think I'd chance it. For the time being I think the current battery will do. After the Sharps I have Rossi '92s in 357 and 45 Colt, a Henry in 44 Mag and a Marlin in 38-55. I cast and load for all and the Sharps is mostly black powder and heavy bullets. Actually except for the 38-55 all my hunting loads are heavy for caliber cast. They do their part if I do mine.

Make smoke,

[Tonerboy1]

I've been hemming and hawing over one these. I missed a couple sales on the Ruger American and now refuse to pay full price. Then after watching the Winchester ad on the Winchester website that showed this years deer hunt video's I'm not so sure that I want one again. If they are selling it as a sledgehammer round specifically designed for deer hunting I was not impressed. Maybe they are keeping it "real" but with all the footage they had of deer being shot, most ran off and had to be tracked. One was shot and broke a leg and still had to be tracked. It was shot in the daylight and wasn't found until way after dark. They didn't mention how far it ran. They did say "most were found within 50 yards". That tells me that many made it a lot farther than that. There is nothing worse than people trespassing on my property tracking a wounded animal. Also keeping in mind these hunters on the video were well trained Winchester reps taking good shots, not like some of the yahoo's around me that don't wait for good shot placement. Another thing I found interesting is their comment on bullet drop, or lack thereof. My understanding of the legalization of these straight walled rifles in shotgun territory was that they dropped similarly to shotgun slugs so they would be somewhat safe to shoot in populated areas. The comment was that it was 0 drop at 150 and only a slight drop at 200. If that's the case then the first few houses to get hit will have the lawmakers out to change it back to shotgun only.

[larryw]

Never met one in person but, with the video I have seen & a first hand account
from a couple friends in north central WVA & mountains of far western Maryland.
Myself or my friends who have taken game with them are not impressed at all.

[Ranch Dog]

As a reference, here are the H2_O case volumes of a couple of popular 35 caliber rifle cartridges.

35_Cartridges.jpg

I don't see the magic, but I know it fits a need:

• Straight wall cartridge required for deer hunting.
• Designed to feed through AR platforms.
• Suppression

Why I would avoid it is that the performance is based on bullets designed specifically for it. If the "man" decided to stop making them, you are pretty much screwed. I've been there and paid a lot for the "T-Shirt." Same with powders that will make it perform.

A lot of fellows are to try to overcome the bullet thing with cast bullets. Based on the cartridge pictures, good luck with that. The cartridge is designed around a very narrow range of bullet weights (weight is equal to length), and I bet a .358 ball cutter is used to cut the throat. Couple that with the tapered case, casters will be surprised at just how light a cast bullet will need to be to chamber without trimming the case back to accommodate the bullet (thus reducing the available powder volume).

I've spent the last hour reading what the web writers have had to say about it, and I bet a lot of these fellows would bad mouth the 35 Rem performance. Granted, that comment is not an apple to apple comparison given the straight wall cartridge requirement, but I'm talking about the terminal performance.

I shoot my 357 Mag Rossi at 40.0K PSI; I'm willing to bet it will keep up with the 350 Legend and shoot a heavier bullet. As a bullet caster, I'd rather have a Ruger 77-357.

[Jeff H]

I concur with everything you said, Michael. Had most of those thoughts myself.

I don't have/don't want and AR, so my 357 Mag/357 Max single shots are just fine. I was almost lured in by the idea of converting a CZ 527, but the end result wouldn't be worth it to me.

Without intending to hurt anyone's feelings, disparage a favored maker or bursting any bubbles, my own personal experience with the 77/357 left me with the single most disappointing firearms purchase ever, with no contender for that title anywhere in my rear-view mirror.

I bought one new and messed with it for a year. For the money, the "finish" was sloppy and incomplete. I won't relate all the picky details, but it's a Ruger, right? One shouldn't expect the look of a custom gun, but this was pathetic.

Accuracy was mediocre when it was at its best, and that's with a lot of experimenting over the course of a year. The magazine didn't work right from the start and the trigger was awful. I fixed both of those issues, but the stiff bolt left me with a bruised cheek after I slapped the bolt-handle after firing the first round.

It was slower to reload than an H&R Handi-Rifle. Never got that fixed. OAL of cartridges is very strictly limited, but it did at least feed the RDO 350-190 (with shortened brass) and the NOE 360-180 OK. The stock was a complete wast of material. It crowded the left side of the barrel, so I relieved the barrel channel and the stock moved more to the right every time I removed more material.

I finally wrote Ruger and explained my issues - specifically the stock and never then heard back. Many months later, they called and asked how they could help. I told them I didn't know because the guy I sold it to didn't give me his number and he didn't care if it shot 4" groups at 50 yards (he said do) using jacketed bullets. I told him he was on his own because all I'd shot out of it was cast. Please note that this is completely atypical of Ruger service in my experience. I figured they saw "77/357" in the subject line of the e-mail and were afraid to open it. They are usually on the ball, just not this time.

What I loved about the gun - it was cute as a bug, light, slender and handy as all get-out. I just could not get it to consistently shoot under a couple inches at fifty yards and working the action was, well WORK. The 16" Rossi 92 I had was shorter, lighter, had a larger magazine capacity, was slicker'n snot and shot significantly better than the Ruger. The H&Rs I've had blew it out of the water for accuracy. Comparing it to my Contender would just be unfair.

Maybe I got a lemon or was "doing it wrong" or just not pushing all the right buttons, but I've made a lot of guns work, work well and shoot very, very well in my time - just not that one. After I'd tried for a year, I'd call it a $250 rifle, not a $750 rifle. No "hate" here, just what I think would been a more honest price for what I got.

I'm not just venting - rather providing a heads-up to anyone seduced by the platform, package or concept of this rifle - I know I was. It's compact, light and just a neat idea. Study up on the XXX/77 line and make sure you're OK with what you could be getting. Some people get them to shoot OK, but that stiff bolt makes it not so much a repeater.

[RBHarter]

I'd like to back track just a little bit ......
The 350 inspite of it's drawing is a 223/556 case it has the same relationship as the 7.7 Arisaka to it Mauser cousins in terms of head/rim dia once fire formed with a lap of Scotch tape it doesn't matter .

As for a 45-70 in a Mauser the new wonder 45-70AR is just a 284 Win blown straight .

I did a 45 Raptor , a rimless 460 S&W , in an SR Mauser and it feeds a whole host of bullets so I can't see where it would be a big deal in any modern rifle as long as it doesn't nose dive in the mag .

AR platforms are a little more taxing . I'll tell you this , there is a world of difference between a GI M4 barrel and extension and that of an ARP . The ARP is polished and rounded off all across the feed area and the GI M4 looks like it was cut in with a course wood rasp and polished with 60 grit Dremel drums by an 8yo .