Confused New Rifle Loader

[Skinnedknuckles]

Please help a new rifle loader. I'm a lee fan and have been reloading for pistols for a few years. I'm just getting into rifle loading for .223 Rem and .35 Rem and I have a question about Lee full length sizing dies.

On their web site, they list a PaceSetter 3-Die Set Steel Rifle and a Pacesetter 3-Die Set. On the description for the Steel set, they say "Same features as our premium carbide sets, except the case must be lubricated." Are the Pacesetter 3-Die Sets (and the Ultimate Rifle 4-Die Set) the premium carbide sets they mention? The instructions for my Ultimate Rifle 4-Die Set make a real point of the need for lubrication, and in the Lee FAQ section (in a 2011 post), they say "We do not make rifle dies in carbide due to the bottlenecks of the cases. It would be too difficult to cut carbide to the correct dimensions, and would need to have carbide run the entire length of the die which would be cost prohibitive. Even with the carbide, you would still need to lubricate the cases." What is the real story?

For .223 Rem I plan to neck size only except for brass that I didn't shoot in my rifle, and it seems I don't really need to lube those cases in any case (do I?). I do plan to full length resize my .35 Rem brass and for ease of effort will be lubing them.

[akuser47]

I do not believe either 3 die set come with the neck sizer. The lee deluxe in .308 and in .223 come with the neck sizers as I fire form my brass I have both those sets in the deluxe. I'm not sure on what the differences are on the two 3 dies sets.

[Maximumbob54]

Oh my.
I don't know how to do this and not go on and on and on...

For a start, all rifle ammo must be full length sized at least the first time. You have to size it down to SAMMI chamber spec. For an auto loader you should always full length size. For a lever action or pump you will probably always have to full length size unless you are running reduced loads. Even then you may still need to resize them. With a bolt action you can usually but not always use the camming action of the lugs locking into place to force the case into the chamber. BUT, this is only done with once fired brass from that one gun. The case becomes fire formed to that exact chamber. For this you would neck size only as you shouldn't need to bump the shoulder back or resize the case body. The downside to this is you may have brass that is harder to eject. The upside is your brass should last longer since it's being worked less.

Case lube. You will need it no matter what for full length sizing. Even for neck sizing I still use a tiny bit. Full length sizing you want a bit of case lube only on the body and not the shoulder or neck. But you want a tiny bit on the case mouth. I've used a lot of different lubes and prefer Imperial Case Sizing Wax. I rub my index finger against the wax and then rub my finger against my thumb. Roll the case between thumb and finger and that's enough lube for sizing. With the case in the shell holder, swipe your finger over the case mouth. Now it's good for full length sizing. That same swipe over the case mouth is what I do for neck sizing as well. Some chambers are so tight you may find you require a small base sizing die. It's rare but it's usually an auto loader.

Case trimming. As you full length size, the case will usually stretch a tiny bit. When you pull the case from the sizing die is when this happens. The brass gets thinner bit by bit just above the case web which is why you should limit reloading rifle brass to only a few reloadings unless you have a tool to test for case wear. If the case gets too long then the case mouth will not allow proper fit in the chamber. It can restrict the bullet enough to raise chamber pressure. So you should always trim after a full length resizing.

About carbide rifle dies. Dillon offers some carbide dies for 5.56 and 7.62 and yes you still need to use case lube with them. If you are thinking carbide like straight wall pistol brass then stop right there. This is totally different. The vast majority of pistol cases have little to no taper to the body and those that do have such minimal body taper that the carbide sizer can over work the case and the loaded cartridge will still function just fine. With a rifle cartridge there is far more taper to the case body to include the step from the body to shoulder to neck. So you can't just use a carbide ring for sizing since you have to swage down the entire case body. Look inside a pistol carbide sizing die. The carbide ring isn't very tall or deep in the die. So it only has minimal contact with the case. In fact, some of the larger heavy magnum pistol brass doesn't use carbide in the sizer because the case walls are so thick that the carbide will over work the brass. And there are very few rifle cases with thin brass in the case walls. So that thick brass having contact for most of the die body means a lot of pressure which is what cases sticking cases. There is just no way to get away from case lube with rifle brass.

Lee's rifle dies. I'm going to cheat and copy/paste:

http://leeprecision.com/reloading-dies/rifle-dies/

Lee Pacesetter Dies and RGB series: Use these dies if you want to produce factory-dimensioned ammo that reliably fits and feeds in any gun. They are the first choice for semi-auto actions. Full-length sizing is a must if you are reloading for more than one firearm or reloading cases that were fired in others firearms. Pacesetter dies include the Lee Factory Crimp Die.

The Lee Collet Neck Sizing Dies: Use these dies for best accuracy, longest case life and no resizing lubricant. Only the neck of the case is resized the body is untouched so it retains the perfect fit to your guns chamber. Cases should have been fired in your firearm only and reloaded rounds are intended for use in just one firearm. These dies are the favorite of the bench rest crowd as there is no other die that can produce a more accurate cartridge.

If you intend to reload cases fired in others guns or you are reloading for more than one gun select the Ultimate Rifle Die Set. The Ultimate set includes a full length resizing die that allows you to restore any case to factory original dimensions so that you can fire form in your gun and then reload using the superior Collet neck sizing die.

So don't get wrapped up in how the dies are packaged. There are only two ways to size a rifle case with Lee dies, either full length size or neck size. Other brands have a body only sizing as an offering and there are specialty dies galore but this is just about Lee's offerings to keep this from being even longer winded.

There is still more to this and most of the reloading manuals will have a section devoted to this and you should pick up a copy of The ABC's of Reloading. Loading for rifle is still easy but it is going to involve more steps.

[Skinnedknuckles]

Finally figured out the root of my confusion. The Steel Rifle Dies seem to be only for straight wall rifle cartridges.

[Maximumbob54]

Finally figured out the root of my confusion. The Steel Rifle Dies seem to be only for straight wall rifle cartridges.

Keep reading. There are no straight wall rifle cartridges that I'm aware of. Some of them look like it but still are not. The .45-70 looks straight wall but does have a gentle taper to it.

[RBHarter]

To my knowledge only pistol dies are carbide . Straight wall rifles are very few 50-70 might be an one along with a handful of 45 cal mags and the 444 Marlin . Because of the belts on the mags carbide is out . I believe the 444 is like the 460 S&W being a longer 44 mag case .

The print in the Lee boxes is I believe a generic 1 print for every die set .

Do lube every case every time that isn't a straight wall pistol case and lube those about 1/5 until you get a feel for the process. If the pistol sizing die doesn't have a visible separate ring in the mouth lube every case. When in doubt lube .

[mr surveyor]

9mm luger isn't "straight walled" either. I don't think many folks lube their 9mm's, but I do have to run about every 5th or 6th case through with some lube.

jd

[Maximumbob54]

I used to mix some of RCBS's water based liquid case lube with alcohol and with a dollar store spray bottle I would spritz some brass in a box. Just a light spray or two and then shake the brass in the box for a minute or so until the alcohol flashed off. That light spray once shaken and dried leaves a thin film of the lube on all the brass. I think RD has said he's done this with Lee's case lube but I won't swear to it. I think Dillon's spray lube is nothing more than liquid lanolin mixed with alcohol. You don't need this with carbide dies but it sure helps your arm during a long reloading session since sizing is the most taxing portion. And before anyone asks, the lube film is thin enough (if you do it right) that I've never had an issue with powder contamination.

[Missionary]

Greetings
Most reloading books have a good read chapter about reloading rifle brass. If you do not have any reloading manuals please spend the money and get at least one. Lee's manual is a good one.

Inside necks of rifle cartridges especially bottle neck get a lot of hot powder forced through them. If while you are reloading the neck expander feels like it is sticking or dragging it probably is. Those case neck interiors get a lot of wear and need cleaned off and on. Your cases will tell you as you remove the case from the resizer. That extra dragging is not good. But if you clean those case neck interiors when needed to will eliminate problems. Once one case in a batch does that dragging I clean that whole batch. An old bore brush mounted in a drill held in a vise is fast and handy.
Mike in Peru

[mr surveyor]

30-30 is the only bottle necked case I load, and my brass is well cleaned and flushed out with the ultra-sonic ... then when I lube the case body (just a touch of Lee Case lube on a finger and thumb), I finish with a tiny touch of lube on a q-tip swirled lightly inside the case mouth. Smooth as silk.



jd